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  • Kiss me Hardy.

    A few people voiced their concerns on this weeks WAYWOF thread regarding the apparent ‘slow down’ of our small but illustrious TKNZ. I share these concerns. TKNZ was once in my view a beacon for NZ watch enthusiasts, and people further afield, but now seems more like the Marie Celeste.


    I thought it would be a good idea to make a separate topic so that members could put forward their opinions and also perhaps discuss a plan of action. This is not an opportunity for ’haters’ to stick the boot in. Please keep any replies respectful and constructive.

    Moderators…..feel free to delete this post if you deem it inappropriate.
    Preparation and planning prevent piss poor performance

  • #2
    Hi Captain, good question and fair observation.
    Interested in all members views.
    I guess like many other parts of life 'the time and effort people put in, generally is reflected in the return'.
    'Beauty is in the eye of the beholder' - but lets face it some people have better eyesight than others!

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by captainscarlet1 View Post
      A few people voiced their concerns on this weeks WAYWOF thread regarding the apparent ‘slow down’ of our small but illustrious TKNZ. I share these concerns. TKNZ was once in my view a beacon for NZ watch enthusiasts, and people further afield, but now seems more like the Marie Celeste.

      I thought it would be a good idea to make a separate topic so that members could put forward their opinions and also perhaps discuss a plan of action....
      Originally posted by Hammers View Post
      ...
      I guess like many other parts of life 'the time and effort people put in, generally is reflected in the return'.
      Thank you, Alex, Hammers… In all areas of life, often times, when we see people voicing out concerns, it usually means that there are many others that identify with those views but have yet to speak out. Unfortunately, it also usually means the issue is serious. Like many problems we face in our lives, it is sometimes easier to ignore them, because admitting we have problems, by default, makes it our responsibility to rectify them.

      Most of us already have a lot of responsibilities in other aspects of our lives, and when we come here, to Timekeeper, we don’t want to talk about serious things—we don’t want to offend the opinions of others by expressing our own honest views. But by avoiding talking about “serious things”, we inevitably avoid things that are important, things that matter. I’m thankful that Alex has given us the courage to talk about this, and that Hammers has given the okay. The current state of the TKNZ is the symptom or outcome of cause(s) that we must identify in order to fix.

      So, as Alex is the OP and Hammers one of our Moderators, what are both of your views on this?

      On the instruments we entrust to pace our lives, to bear witness to our days, and to be the keepers of the most precious thing we have... time.

      Comment


      • #4
        Well thanks Don......I think. Usually when someone posts a question or query, they don't expect to answer it themselves (They don't call you Sensei for nothing). I look at TKNZ pretty much every day and I'm still here.....posting when my stupid computer allows. I notice that there are a great many visitors to the site (many of whom are probably members who no longer post or log in, but watch from the sidelines) I would be more interested to hear their views before I voice my own. More members with fewer contributors??..... It just doesn't add up. I'm just a concerned citizen.
        Preparation and planning prevent piss poor performance

        Comment


        • #5
          [QUOTE=Don;n50008][SIZE=14px][FONT=arial]
          Most of us already have a lot of responsibilities in other aspects of our lives, and when we come here, to Timekeeper, we don’t want to talk about serious things—we don’t want to offend the opinions of others by expressing our own honest views. But by avoiding talking about “serious things”, we inevitably avoid things that are important, things that matter. I’m thankful that Alex has given us the courage to talk about this, and that Hammers has given the okay. The current state of the TKNZ is the symptom or outcome of cause(s) that we must identify in order to fix.-DON




          Don I think youve hit upon an important point here, after the shootings in Christchurch we nearly "bonded" but man what a friggin' hot potato that incident was. I dont blame anyone for not wanting to dive into it at all. However there was sentiment felt around it that was perhaps a missed opportunity to develop more community. Personally I dont like the language I am using but cannot find a more relaxed less loaded term than community.

          I also think when someone like sjb goes on leave his absence is felt straight away due to being a serial poster to sjb

          A symptom perhaps of less people posting is more people abstaining. I have felt over the last couple of weeks that I would rather post during the week than Friday...dunno why.
          I remember Harlan some time ago commenting on how he likes to try and figure out what is going on in the background during the daily wrist shot and WAYWOF. I felt that humanising and perhaps sharing insight into who we all are but subtly.


          Thanks for starting the thread Cap





          Last edited by Sarbie; 01-06-19, 21:26. Reason: messed up the format for Dons quote.
          I was a one watch guy until I got my first SEIKO

          Comment


          • #6
            Sat here for the last 15 minutes thinking about this thread and doing what I do in my day job, trying to solve the problem.

            This one I suspect has multiple reasons why current forum 'activity' seems low / slow, and therefore what would lead to pick-up.

            Yes there are certainly a few previous key contributors, each for their own good reasons / circumstances, are now less active.

            This creates a gap and an opportunity.

            I think the difference between this and some other forums (certainly one or two of the international ones) is that TKNZ is generally less confrontational and more open to different views on watch related topics. Some of the international forums are brutal!

            Hence this is a 'safe place' to express your views on watch related content or to ask a serious or 'dumb' question, or just post what you are wearing or next aspiring to own.

            Member numbers are on the face of it good, continue to grow.

            Lets hear from you all - all contributions welcome.

            ​​​


            ​​​​​​
            'Beauty is in the eye of the beholder' - but lets face it some people have better eyesight than others!

            Comment


            • #7
              I had a thought this morning regarding the most active thread....the daily wrist check.

              I wonder if we could kind of re-tool the thread to also have the feeling of a chat box perhaps more members would come out of the woodwork.

              Just a simple renaming might even do it...'daily chat and wrist check'...'what's on your mind and whats on your wrist'.

              ??



              Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk

              I was a one watch guy until I got my first SEIKO

              Comment


              • #8
                I've been away in the UK for the past 4 weeks, leaving tomorrow afternoon. Looking forward to diving back into TKNZ on my return. A new format for daily wrist check may just be the ticket to get things ticking along again.

                6 times! YNWA!
                If I think of something witty, I'll be sure to write it here.

                Comment


                • Don
                  Don commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Looking forward to having you back, sjb. Safe trip!

              • #9
                Originally posted by Hammers
                ...I think the difference between this and some other forums (certainly one or two of the international ones) is that TKNZ is generally less confrontational and more open to different views on watch related topics...
                Originally posted by Hammers

                ...Hence this is a 'safe place' to express your views on watch related content or to ask a serious or 'dumb' question, or just post what you are wearing or next aspiring to own.

                ​​​​​​


                Thank you, Hammers. I agree about the accessibility of Timekeeper, and how we welcome people regardless of their knowledge of watches. On the whole, we don’t require prerequisite experience, and on the contrary, are more than ready to equip newcomers with the basics to help them navigate. However, you would agree that this makes the issue under discussion even more serious, because in spite of the accessible nature, we are declining in value-added content and therefore participation.

                TKNZ is turning 10 this year—we went live in August 2009—and the fact that no one is saying anything about it nor seem to have any enthusiasm about it shows the state of things. Sadly, Timekeeper is becoming our unloved child, of sort.


                Originally posted by Hammers
                ...Some of the international forums are brutal!
                Originally posted by Hammers
                ​​​​​​


                True... Prior to our forum, I did and do still hold memberships in other overseas forum, and I can definitely relate to what you mean. Let’s make it clear that I don’t condone bullying and harassing behaviours on line, but there is a reason for what you witnessed and it is something that, IMO, is needed. There is a disproportionately common symptoms among watch enthusiasts/collectors, myself included, especially when they are new to participating in watch forums.

                As men, many of us from time to time suffer from over-inflated ego, possibly because we are generally successful in our chosen careers or have reached a certain socio-economic place in society. We embark on a journey to conquer yet another domain of competence that we see these watch forums to be. We enter and show off our expensive wrist wear and/or recount our frequent patronage of high-end watch retailers—all with hopes of gaining instant admiration, acceptance, and respect. On some forums, this works, and we “buy” our way into a established hierarchy, based not on our actual competence but on how much we spent on the watches.

                On other forums, we encounters, instead,some established members who quickly spot exactly how we identify with our grandiosity and who proceed to deflate us down to human-level again. In the past, I myself was certainly not immune to some level of self-inflation and, even now from time to time, am still a victim of my own ego. It doesn’t feel good to be reduced down, but I walk away from it being a better person, and I won’t want anybody to spare me from that. Underlying subconscious mechanisms like this, within social forums, helps us become more aware of our frailties and limitations, and helps build communities of strength and virtue.


                Originally posted by Hammers
                ...
                Originally posted by Hammers
                Member numbers are on the face of it good, continue to grow.​​​​​​


                That’s true as well, but to this, I quote the Captain above, “...More members with fewer contributors??..... It just doesn't add up...”

                In all honesty, I think we can only count Active Members, and I’m not sure if there’s some objective criteria that we can use to count who’s "Active”. As an analogy, I’m sure everyone here has registered for an on-line customer account when buying from a retailer, either as the only way to order a particular product or to track order status. We do it as a once off, never buying from that online store again, despite still getting the odd newsletter or promotion email every now and then. Should the store count us as a customer?

                In March, I did my own sedimentary headcount of active members through this thread…https://www.timekeeper.co.nz/forum/w...-is-the-oldest ...My take on it is that, when I browse the NZ Herald website, I don’t really bother to leave any comments on anything—no time, and not passionate enough about the issues. Yet, when I see a poll, I am likely to take part, because it only takes me a few seconds to do so. I thought to myself that, even for members who have no time to post on Timekeeper or don’t care that much for participation, they should be able to spare a few seconds to click on a poll option.


                There was a total of only 17 votes cast, mine plus 16 others, after running for three days. Excluding the possibility that there are active members who doesn’t like 1) any Seiko-related, or 2) the OP (me), then we have 17 active members on this forum. Many of you here have been in management and may be familiar with an application of Price’s Law, i.e. 50% of all productive output is produced by the square root of number of all contributors. This would be implied that, on TKNZ, four members are currently responsible for half the content produced.

                We cannot escape from the effect of Price's Law, at least not in a sustainable manner, so the only way to increase content that I see is to increase the number of active members. I believe that we can achieve this while, at the same time, remain selective of who becomes a member. However, no gain can be had without losing something, and it all depends on whether we are willing to do so.
                On the instruments we entrust to pace our lives, to bear witness to our days, and to be the keepers of the most precious thing we have... time.

                Comment


                • #10
                  To be honest I stopped coming to the forum for awhile purely because of the events that went down here in CHCH and felt that nobody on this forum apart from myself and 1 other gave it more than a passing "meh".Now I understand that some felt this forum was to be kept as a safe place to discuss things other than our watch habits but these were horrific events and those of us who were affected perhaps felt a little let down by the non understanding of the members of this forum especially when one of there own was hurting so much , some times there are bigger things than what your wearing on Friday . Sorry but just my 2cents worth
                  'why tip toe thru life ,only to arrive safely at death'

                  Comment


                  • #11
                    having not logged in for some time but still been checking in every now and then, i'll stick my oar in.
                    the forum had 2 pretty big issues that i don't think it has really recovered from...
                    1. the handbags at dawn with the bloke from the gay bar.
                    this was for me a prime example of peoples inability to seperate a forum from real world, quite a few boys quit and took some interesting POV with them (some nonsense but some worth reading)
                    2. the forum crash and repeated minor crashes post server change.
                    this was around when i started becoming rather jaded with the whole hobby and assisted in my decision to move away more and more.

                    a smaller issue could be the forum lay-out. if you look to TZUK or SCWF you will see a rather different front to the forum. clarity and options aplenty and areas to talk/ramble/discuss many other topics. we are however a v.small forum so trying to adopt something similar may just result in even more empty links! it would be up to the membership to use it or not.

                    the reference to the CHCH incident; what is it you wanted to see? a group outpouring of grief? a discussion on the hows and whys? given the current social/political environment i would be cautious expressing any opinions that could be construed as outside the group think mentality. lets pose a few questions here and see what kind of replies we get.
                    why do you think Brenton Tarrant did it?
                    do you think everyone believes removing "assault weapons" from people will stop this from ever happening again? do people believe that an individual, any individual comfortable with murdering 50 people worries about the legality of the firearms they procure?
                    should we ban all media that some people feel is racist or sexist or homophobic (not that it is but that some people "feel" it is) do people like the idea that all the racist, sexist, homophobes are now silenced and underground where we don't know what they are thinking anymore?
                    while the events were abhorrent to anyone but the worst of society, we will not get the the crux of the issue while we simplify causation to sound bite group identity catch phrases and i don't think (sorry for this HUGE generalisation) Kiwis are the most vocal of people when i comes to public discourse, KiwiBiker accepted (those boys can fling sh!t )

                    while it would be nice to see the forum expand into a more social forum, i believe a large percentage of the population are no longer able to deal with differing opinions and most such lines of discussion immediately descend into name calling and tribal conflict.

                    so there you have it. i have fired a few questions on a topic that is probably quite raw to us all, feel free to chip in, lets see what kind of conversation this forum can generate, maybe start it up in a seperate thread and let it run.

                    “Strong people are harder to kill than weak people and more useful in general.”


                    Despite having the numbers, there is the crazy man in the mountains that none of the tribes will go near!
                    Always aim to be that man.

                    Comment


                    • #12
                      Originally posted by shandy View Post
                      To be honest I stopped coming to the forum for awhile purely because of the events that went down here in CHCH and felt that nobody on this forum apart from myself and 1 other gave it more than a passing "meh".Now I understand that some felt this forum was to be kept as a safe place to discuss things other than our watch habits but these were horrific events and those of us who were affected perhaps felt a little let down by the non understanding of the members of this forum especially when one of there own was hurting so much , some times there are bigger things than what your wearing on Friday...
                      shandy, I am sorry. I can’t say that it’s on behalf of the forum, because I am not the forum. I’m sorry I read your messages along with Sarbie’s responses on the days following the event, I thought about acting...but stopped short of that.

                      It was, in my opinion, a failure of Leadership. Not a failure that we didn’t act appropriately nor a failure that we didn’t give the event proper address that it no doubt deserved. It was a failure that, among senior members of this forum, we did not even raise the topic among ourselves on whether to address the matter. If we were to see the forum as our child faced with such a tragedy, we would put aside our personal preferences to escape dealing with the event, and we would help guide the child to act appropriately—that’s what we would do to a child we care for.

                      We, among senior members should have at the very least talked among ourselves, about whether or not a response to the incident was warranted. I know that members like shandy didn't want a dissection into the events, but just a "we are saddened and sorry" from Timekeeper, as a community, would have been appropriate. We could have even said that and still barred discussions of details and/or analysis from happening.

                      While I am not Leadership, I am a long-term senior member who share the responsibility of shaping how the forum should be. I thought about acting, but in effect, chose to do what was more comfortable and let the thought pass. I did care about the event in Christchurch but didn’t care enough about Timerkeeper forum... In not acting out the care for TKNZ, I am of the part of the problem.

                      On the instruments we entrust to pace our lives, to bear witness to our days, and to be the keepers of the most precious thing we have... time.

                      Comment


                      • #13
                        Some tempting encouragement into darker stuff there John!

                        I’ll throw my 2CW in as well from my humble watch novice perspective... more clued up on beer and whisky!

                        I can only speak from my personal opinion and personal circumstances.

                        I’ll start with the state of my collection. Having enjoyed this forum for a number of years now and pretty much gained all I know about watches from the many knowledgeable members we have, I wouldn’t have the enjoyment I have for all the timepieces in my collection without their input.

                        I haven’t bought a watch for close to a year now, apart from a citizen which I bought as a tag and release when I found out they were on trial with the RN.

                        When I started collecting it was an interest in British military watches. Managed to get hold of a few including some of the original dirty dozen, however as everyone knows in this hobby, your tastes change and things progress.

                        I also started this hobby at a time when I had three very young kids and it had to be self funding to a large degree.

                        Over the last 5 years I’ve bought and sold over 150 watches. I know many on here have easily doubled or tripled this. However those early stages were bargain basement watches, cheap vintage watches and the occasional good deal that sold for a profit. Fast forward down the track and I soon realized vintage watches weren’t for me. I enjoyed a decent size, good lume and something more modern.

                        My new goal was to get an entry level luxury watch for each of my kids. Last year I bought a Tudor that topped up my Breitling and Omega.

                        Goal achieved! At the time I remember feeling somewhat unhappy that I no longer had a need to continue to pursue the hobby? But I still followed sales and auctions, I still had my “would like to try” watches and therefore it kept my hand in play.

                        At this stage I miss that thrill of buying lots of cheap watches on a regular basis. They formed a lot of regular posts in the vintage selection and I thoroughly enjoyed cleaning them up and finding out information about them.

                        I don’t think I have stopped this simply because of one goal I have achieved. The fact I haven’t bought a watch for a while now is not just because I don’t want one. It doesn’t stop me searching trade me every week or looking at the bay. But imo there are very little bargain or reasonably priced watches of historic or “good value” on our domestic site anymore. There is a lot of overpriced watches that are being touted repeatedly or watches that are simply fashion items.

                        This is one reason I know my post count has dropped... nothing new to report!

                        We have also lost the regular contact of a number of members who were keen on new finds, Tony was one of those who was a big contributor to the vintage forum.

                        I’m now at a point, and my ego isn’t big enough to not say that my finances simply won’t reach my next grail point. My watch account hasn’t moved in 6 months so the chasm between where my current collection is and where it might go is massive. I’m sitting with around 2 dozen watches in the collection, a number of them need to go but I’m not ready to part with them so I’m in a rut!

                        I think we do have some social aspects on the forum, we have a few keen bikers, several lovers of single malt and I don’t think many of us would shy away from a brew and we have threads that always welcome input!

                        I think it would be good to keep membership valid and if the post count never goes above a certain level and is dormant, no point keeping the membership alive. I also know that when I started here, all those luxury watches and expensive micro brands can seem daunting to the newbie.

                        I also concur that we lost a few contributors when we had the pistols at dawn episode and as much as Kiwi’s don’t like talking about emotion, they don’t do conflict well either.

                        However, one of the things I value most about this forum is the civility we have with each other.

                        For me personally I haven’t posted a beer review for a while and it’s not because I stopped drinking! My current state of collection has a lot to do with less frequent posts. A long winded explanation but maybe one that reflects others’ point at where they are at in this hobby. I know I’m at a point where I can’t move forwards for a while and I’ve tasted the tip of what I like and going backwards isn’t an option either. But I still enjoying it!

                        As for the CHC matter.... this was a tragedy that should never have happened. I have a point of view on this and for the record I see no reason at all why anyone in NZ needs a semi-auto rifle outside of the military. Is there an opportunity for a club to hold them for experience firing, very possibly, will people get hold of weapons to carry out their agendas? Yes, but we can limit the opportunity. I ended up getting close to the CHC matter as I did in London and Northern Ireland and it is not pleasant in any shape or form. So for me personally I’d rather not talk about it endlessly in a thread apart from pay my respects.

                        This IS a great wee forum and I hope that members do feel they can contribute. It is up to us to make it a community and like any community it takes work and effort.

                        A good discussion, many thanks OP


                        Last edited by Brucy; 04-06-19, 13:43.

                        Comment


                        • #14
                          I just sat down and wrote a big, long winded post. Then I deleted it cause it had virtually nothing to do with watches and the last time I checked this was a watch forum. I will say however that in general I concur with DW on:

                          1. The Redbar fiasco was an absolutely ridiculous load of BS. Without being too involved in it all my feeling was that that group was mostly about the things that Don referred to above - ego and bling. I don’t have either of them so I’ve got no interest in Redbar and TKNZ is a happier place without that crap (for me anyway).
                          2. Yep. All the performance issues the site had, especially last year, were a big issue and I think they’re still impacting the level of contribution.
                          3. If people want to discuss non watch related world events I’d suggest that there’s thousands of other places to do so. Personally I like that when there’s wall to wall coverage of something, whether it be good or bad, on other platforms I can still come to TKNZ and not have it in my face. HOWEVER - we do have an ‘off topic’ forum and I encourage anyone that wants to bring up any topic at any stage to feel free to do so. Don’t wait for others to do it, if it’s something you’re really keen on or feeling strongly about then get in there and start a thread in the ‘off topic’ forum. The great thing about TKNZ is that it’s generally relatively non-judgemental so you should feel safe to broach any topic. If something was really grotesquely offensive (or illegal) and all mods agreed it would be removed, but otherwise it’s an open forum.

                          Comment


                          • Don
                            Don commented
                            Editing a comment
                            Leroy, what you have, you have a lot of. Be proud. I personally would rather retain one of you than to have that crowd back.

                        • #15
                          To "Don" sensei I say thankyou , as a martial artist of 38 years and counting I know what the word Sensei means and your comments were those of a teacher , I say again thankyou with respect. Others on this forum could learn a lot from this man
                          'why tip toe thru life ,only to arrive safely at death'

                          Comment


                          • Don
                            Don commented
                            Editing a comment
                            I am humbled, shandy. Thank you.

                          • rolex
                            rolex commented
                            Editing a comment
                            + 1 that shandy

                            Don's a 'professional researcher & active 'doer'', he has a mass of knowledge which he has learned by research + real world ownership & collection of a wide variety of wrist watches

                            AFAIK no one else has spent as much effort in becoming versed & learned in this game than him, well... not in NZL

                            Like you said, 'Thanks a lot Don'
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