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  • #31
    I am back, jetlagged and sick with 5 weeks of crap to catch up with. Will chime in some more a bit later. Like DW says above, simply starting more threads is a great idea. Some become epics, others are just tumbleweed. But conversations need to be started to be had. I had some interesting chats with watch dealers in the UK in a fruitless search for a BB58 or an Air-king, so watch this space.
    If I think of something witty, I'll be sure to write it here.

    Comment


    • Sarbie
      Sarbie commented
      Editing a comment
      No 58's at all? Not on NATO or leather either?

    • Sarbie
      Sarbie commented
      Editing a comment
      And welcome home

  • #32
    Some random thoughts from me… given my WAYWOF post last Friday was potentially one of the comments that lead to the creation of this thread I had better add my 2 cents worth. Started this some many times with the intention of posting but thoughts into words just did not seem to come easy.

    Firstly, there are some great thoughts already and many align with my perspectives.

    Interesting that the forum started in 2009 – looking back at my WAYWOF pic files, I have been posting since 2012 so plenty of water under the bridge since then.

    Secondly, to address the questions asked – ‘do you think the decline in active membership and participation on Timekeeper Forum has a serious underlying problem?’. I’m in the A) yes, and it needs to be identified camp.

    It would be interesting to look at the traffic stats over the last handful of years – are we getting less hits, less posts, or more hits, but less posts? I note a post in this thread seems to refer to we have a larger (active?) member base but less are posting these days? Where are the posts and traffic coming from?

    A question I have if folks are not posting on this forum, are they posting on other watch forums and if so why? And what? I actually for the first time ever posted my WAYWOF from last Friday watch on another forum last week as well as here (naughty me).

    Personally, of the 10-15 forums I am a member for I seldom post on any of them – in fact this forum is without exception that only one I actively post on. There are some that I visit daily but have never once posted on. Potentially this is a symptom of my professional life as I do like to observe and listen initially before commenting – I tend to find one picks up so much more by actually listening first up! I do tend to use the forums I follow for information and research – like how to supercharge an MGB or change my Mini water pump! Flip side is I do feel a sense of belonging to this forum – potentially given I now spend the majority of my life overseas I guess it’s a nice to have a ‘local’ kiwi based forum of like minded chaps – which can be hard to find given my diverse interests and hobbies that are not all that politically correct these days.

    I agree with one of the posts – I feel the UX is absolute crap and a lot could be done to refine the layout, landing page and general look and feel. Also as noted the repeated crashes and pics displaying was damn annoying at the time and we still have folks commenting they can't post a picture easily.

    I’m also in the same position as some here – over the years my tastes have changed, I have got out of many areas of collecting and now are looking to go a little more upmarket (buying less and saving for a larger purchase) which means longer time between drinks (or something new!). Hence less inclined to post as know what I want and in general tend to be far more informed these days.

    I’m also not a great fan of the daily wrist check, to me it’s just a progression of the same watches – hence me trying to wear something different on each Fridays post! Then again, I do appreciate that its often the only post some days and not everyone has the same opinion as me regarding that thread. It’s not something that makes me avoid the forum or not post.

    I’m not 100% sure we are more tolerant of differing views when compared to other web sites – maybe given the lower user count and posts we simply have less confrontational threads? I know in the last 18 months or so a couple of threads have given me pause to consider my continued participation (well more likely whether I post or not. As noted above, I’m a happy observer). I think we need to understand that what we write/post is permanent and not that easily undone sometimes – and it can have quite far reaching consequences. For me that is what Don was referring to regarding TKNZ being an ‘entity’. IRL we meet and make friends and can often forget / forgive what they say or do or understand and accept their foibles as the sum of them is more than a miss placed word or spelling mistake or hissy fit in a thread. Online that is not necessarily the case, you really are what you post – especially for me since I am 100% I know no one in real life from this forum. And lets not go into the fact that the web is an easy environment for trolling or anything else that can give those with a narcissistic personality a podium.

    Re the Chch act of terrorism – I was back in NZ a few weeks following it and 1 of my mates told me how the country seemed a different place and there was a need to take care with expressing some views and comments. Not having actually been in NZ or Chch for the shooting I watched it all on the TV and second hand via txting and talking to mates so can’t really comment on how people were impacted. The sad thing to me is it seems that the human tragedy was used very quickly to push certain political agenda and ideals and in many ways an event that could have pulled people together will overtime pull the country in some areas further apart.

    I’ll end with making a comment that allows me to raise a question – I’m not a fan of some of the handles that we have e.g. Senior Member, Sensei and even Super Moderator verses a simple Moderator and noting an individual is a 1 or 2 or 5 year Member (even foundation member?). What makes someone a Senior Member or Super Mod – the boys call me old due to my salt and pepper beard, hopefully that does make me a senior! Any way reason for commenting, does that create an illusion or perceptions that we are (parts or some members are) elitist or more worthy than others?

    Comment


    • #33
      Interesting thread - I still visit the site lots, but don't post too much, as generally I don't have sufficient expertise to comment beyond, "that looks amazing" lol, and life gets in the way, by collection hasn't changed much in a while - and the Sinn U1 dominates wrist time. Chua's comments resonated with me

      Curious about the Redbar issue, blissfully unaware of that.

      Thankful the the forum remains, and the efforts of Harlan, Steve, Bryn, John, Don and others (apologies if I've missed people, stream of consciousness) to keep it vibrant and share their experience and expertise. Everyone I've dealt with here and met has been helpful great...

      Comment


      • retlaw4
        retlaw4 commented
        Editing a comment
        Yes regrading the redbar issue. Can someone please explain it? I'm also unaware. Feel free to DM me if it's going to derail the thread.

      • Don
        Don commented
        Editing a comment

      • harlansmart
        harlansmart commented
        Editing a comment
        Same here but do you see that bothering me lol... I've learned most things (of the very few things I have learned) by trying & doing it the wrong way first a few times. This is one place where I haven't noticed too much bullying or sneering... you should be pretty safe here saying whatever you like PSYCHED.

        Still want to animate your avatar however, that could be improved on.

        'generally I don't have sufficient expertise to comment beyond, "that looks amazing" lol' - psyched

    • #34
      Im one of the "friends" that "betrayed us" (Don's words). Nowadays I still spend occasional time on "Gaybar" (DWs words)

      This "us and them" attitude pretty much ruined TKNZ for me. It became judgmental, snooty, unwelcoming and then downright hostile to a bunch of its members.

      Some people might be genuinely appreciative and clued up about expensive watches and have the funds to buy them. Some people might just like a bit of bling. And sure some people might actually crave inferred status from their luxury item. Shock Horror!! Yes, they can be prats about it, but then so is acting all high and mighty and thinking that you are better than them. Better to educate than alienate. For a watch forum TKNZ sure doesn't seem to like a lot of watches or the people associated with them - and therein lies much of the problem, in my humble opinion.

      Sincere best wishes in building the forum back up. I will still post occasionally if you will still have me.

      My karma ran over your dogma

      Comment


      • #35
        Originally posted by jakem View Post
        I will still post occasionally if you will still have me.
        Don, H and the rest have just voted. i'll let you know how it goes


        Oops! i think im rumbled.
        “Strong people are harder to kill than weak people and more useful in general.”


        Despite having the numbers, there is the crazy man in the mountains that none of the tribes will go near!
        Always aim to be that man.

        Comment


        • #36
          Originally posted by jakem View Post
          Sincere best wishes in building the forum back up. I will still post occasionally if you will still have me.
          Thank you, Jake. It’s a privilege to have your views on this thread, and it is admirable that you have spoken up, despite knowing the potential hostility. I will not shoot the messenger, but would like to exercise my right to counter some of those points, and these are my perspectives only, not of the collective whole.


          Originally posted by jakem View Post
          Im one of the "friends" that "betrayed us" (Don's words)…
          ...not forgetting that Don’s more accurately quoted words should be “...our friends turned against us, betrayed the trust we had in them...”. (it's okay ) ..One can certainly argue about that, but one should not forget also that the concept of betrayal, like that of disappointment and sorrow, are subjective feelings. How disappointed we feel depends almost entirely on our prior expectation of the outcome, and how sad we feel towards a loss is linked to how much we valued that thing or person. Likewise, the gravity of a felt betrayal lies not in the severity of the action, but how much we trusted that person in question.

          We can never reliably measure how much we have betrayed someone because we simply aren't aware how much trust was placed on us exactly. Could it be partly our fault or our delusion to have trusted? ...Yes, of course! But that’s another story altogether. Personally, I never question a person’s feeling of disappointment, sorrow, or betrayal, because I am not them.

          Despite English not being my first language, I think my choice of the word “betray” is correct.


          Originally posted by jakem View Post
          ...Better to educate than alienate.
          I agree with you on this, Jake.

          Timekeeper was founded on the principles of educating, creating awareness, and knowledge sharing, not only within the New Zealand watch community, but also the general watch-buying public. The latter is why TKNZ is open to the public, and we require neither registration of membership nor contribution to read every part of the forum. You don’t need to Friend-request us, nor “like” us, and you can still harvest the knowledge and experience of watch enthusiasts here... Heck, you can even dislike us and still drop by, from time to time, to see how we cope after you left!

          We don’t out loud say that we “educate”—we don’t believe so much in promoting and marketing what we are. Instead, we act out what we are. If you have doubt, then take a look at this 6-page thread: https://www.timekeeper.co.nz/forum/w...e-watch-wr0608 ...Now, direct me to a watch forum topic anywhere on the Internet that seeks to educate its members, or put in more time and effort to educate its member, along with the general public, more than the above.

          Take a look at this sales post for a NZ$180 watch, which the seller gains nothing—making a loss for what he bought it for, not including the international shipping cost he has to pay: https://www.timekeeper.co.nz/forum/w...urist-movement ...Show me which a member of any random Facebook group that puts in the same time and effort, with no returns, all in the spirit of educating. Serious, please show me!

          Do you know what is alienating? ...Alienating is the worship of and advocating of Exclusivity. Yes, it is shocking horror to me—and it damn well should be shocking to you too—that a community or society preaches Inclusiveness but, in practice, drool over being Exclusive-this Exclusive-that. It is not only alienating, it is by definition, hypocritical.

          The Timekeeper Forum is not better than... whoever... BUT we are the only legitimate watch forum entity in New Zealand. We are the only NZ watch forum referenced elsewhere in the watch world, and therefore, the only one recognized. Don’t take it from me—just ask Google.

          While I can’t speak for other members here, my primary concern in this discussion on the seeming decline of TKNZ is not how-can-we-be-popular-again—I am introvert and not one to identify with popularity. My concern is how we, as a forum, can contribute more to the watch community worldwide than we are already doing. Such is not any random FB group's purpose of existence, and can never be. Some people believe in our forum—believe that we can indeed give more and be more than the tiny population of NZ could ever expect to achieve.

          I think a part of you believe in us too, and that's why you are still posting, Jake.



          Originally posted by jakem View Post
          For a watch forum TKNZ sure doesn't seem to like a lot of watches or the people associated with them...
          In my very humble opinion, a person who is looking for a forum that must like any and every type of watch/person combo is not looking for a forum. He is looking for a mirror.

          Last edited by Don; 10-06-19, 23:55.
          On the instruments we entrust to pace our lives, to bear witness to our days, and to be the keepers of the most precious thing we have... time.

          Comment


          • #37
            Well I’m gratified to read some more great posts from our members. Thank you Tempus, Don, Chua, Kiwibloke, Deerworrier, Mechanalogue, Brucy, Sarbie, SJB, Psyched, and Jakem for getting your oars into the stream.

            I’ve even seen on one of my visits quite a few members logged on, who have not been here for some considerable time. I hope you return.

            The intricate and sometimes anal realities of watch collecting/buying/selling have long driven wedges between the closest of friends. I’ve seen relationships forged over decades crash and burn over a non original setting lever undisclosed. I can’t think of another area of collecting that elicits the emotional responses we sometimes see. I think a lesson can be learned from the Redbar incident for example, that good diplomatic communication is key to maintaining good relations. Having looked through that thread again (thanks for putting it up Don) I see areas where communication could have been better. A little more effort could have gone a long way. Our own rules suggest posting publicly only those things that you would accept being posted about yourself. We sometimes fall down in that area in our efforts to be humorous or making the thread more interesting, or perhaps our fragile ego’s get in the way. It’s always a fine line.

            We as a group are all getting older and I wonder if new generations of watch enthusiasts are coming through. I look at lots of wrists when I’m out and about, and where once a watch might have been there I see no such thing. The prevalence of technology in the form of mobile phones and ‘wrist computers’ is to my mind slowly eroding the need for a mechanical watch, or indeed a quartz watch, leaving only a small minority of…….Well….Us, with the means and the will to buck the trend.

            I believe watch companies on the whole are doing pretty well at the moment, so there are people out there who may from time to time need information or help with their timepiece. Google has amassed a gargantuan (always like using that word) amount of watch information, and it is only a few clicks away from the astute user. I reckon this is also a symptom of why our forum (the entity) has slowed. Information supplied by us to Google may be the harbinger of our own doom.

            Anyway, just a few thoughts to add into the mix.
            Preparation and planning prevent piss poor performance

            Comment


            • #38
              Actually evidence from the last couple of days would seem to point to the main problem being that DW hasn’t sold anything for ages.

              Comment


              • deerworrier
                deerworrier commented
                Editing a comment
                and i still bloody haven't. the sooner Skody and Kiwi bloke realise they don't want their GS divers anymore the better

              • kiwi.bloke
                kiwi.bloke commented
                Editing a comment
                There is no ‘dislike’ button... ;-) so I’ll have to just say not bloody likely. I am keenly waiting for the new GS Diver release however, that may cause me to break up the twins.

              • deerworrier
                deerworrier commented
                Editing a comment
                Ha! the language of the WIS. "Not bloody likely........although"

            • #39
              Ok here’s my thoughts...

              I started RedBarNZ. It was never meant to compete with or detract from TKNZ. I was always firmly of the opinion the two could and should coexist. I still am of that opinion actually. One should promote and drive watch enthusiasts to the other.

              To be honest I’m not sure how this spiralled out of control and turned into a bit of a war.

              Having said that reading thru this thread I can see how it did. To be blunt/honest a lot of the reactions here have been a bit pathetic. And quite embarrassing. Gay bar? Enough said.

              RedBarNZ continues to go from strength to strength. There are no egos. It’s not about bling. Or how expensive your watch is. And anyone with that opinion has a chip on their shoulder and needs to get over it.

              I have met a ton of top guys since I started RedBarNZ. More and more are coming out of the woodwork. Every day. The Facebook page would see more posts in a day than TKNZ does in a month. Why is that? Have a read back thru this thread and check the opinions of those that are left here. I could be wrong. But the evidence would suggest I’m not.

              Don, I’m sure you are a nice man with a wealth of knowledge. But you really do come across to those of us who don’t know you as very condescending and arrogant. I’m sorry, but you just do.

              RedBarNZ has bought the watch community in NZ together far quicker and more effectively and a far larger scale than TKNZ. And I predict it’s only going to get bigger.

              As an example we are having our next gtg in July. Partridge Jewellers is hosting us. We had to cap numbers at 50. It was fully subscribed the night I posted it on the Facebook page. There will be some brand support. It will be an awesome night with some great people. Talking watches. Drinking beer. And TKNZ is doing what exactly??

              I rest my case.

              I still firmly believe the two can and should coexist and get along. Promote watches/beer/friendships etc... but I have to say after reading the opinions and thoughts of the regulars here, it’s unlikely.

              Would love to hear your thoughts.


              Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
              noiseorchard@gmail.com

              Comment


              • #40
                Originally posted by waikato7 View Post
                Ok here’s my thoughts...

                I started RedBarNZ. It was never meant to compete with or detract from TKNZ. I was always firmly of the opinion the two could and should coexist. I still am of that opinion actually. One should promote and drive watch enthusiasts to the other.

                To be honest I’m not sure how this spiralled out of control and turned into a bit of a war.

                Having said that reading thru this thread I can see how it did. To be blunt/honest a lot of the reactions here have been a bit pathetic. And quite embarrassing. Gay bar? Enough said.

                RedBarNZ continues to go from strength to strength. There are no egos. It’s not about bling. Or how expensive your watch is. And anyone with that opinion has a chip on their shoulder and needs to get over it.

                I have met a ton of top guys since I started RedBarNZ. More and more are coming out of the woodwork. Every day. The Facebook page would see more posts in a day than TKNZ does in a month. Why is that? Have a read back thru this thread and check the opinions of those that are left here. I could be wrong. But the evidence would suggest I’m not.

                Don, I’m sure you are a nice man with a wealth of knowledge. But you really do come across to those of us who don’t know you as very condescending and arrogant. I’m sorry, but you just do.

                RedBarNZ has bought the watch community in NZ together far quicker and more effectively and a far larger scale than TKNZ. And I predict it’s only going to get bigger.

                As an example we are having our next gtg in July. Partridge Jewellers is hosting us. We had to cap numbers at 50. It was fully subscribed the night I posted it on the Facebook page. There will be some brand support. It will be an awesome night with some great people. Talking watches. Drinking beer. And TKNZ is doing what exactly??

                I rest my case.

                I still firmly believe the two can and should coexist and get along. Promote watches/beer/friendships etc... but I have to say after reading the opinions and thoughts of the regulars here, it’s unlikely.

                Would love to hear your thoughts.


                Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                To be honest mate I don’t think that you yourself or the fact that you started another group was ever a problem. I was never very involved in whatever went down and I felt some sympathy for people like Jacob who seemed to genuinely want the two to work together and were frustrated by the fact that it didn’t. In saying that there were some other members that were new to both groups who seemed quite happy to just shit on TKNZ and use it for their own gain. And I’ve said it before - as someone of very limited means I’ve always felt welcome as a member of TKNZ, and my $50 watch could sit happily next to someone’s $15k Swiss watch without either one of us batting an eyelid. Until a couple of people came along and that all changed. Those people were also keen initial members of RedBar. Maybe just a coincidence, but it didn’t feel that way. I know it’s probably hard to understand when you’ve got multiple watches in your box that are worth 4 times as much as my car, that’s just the way of the world I guess. I’m happy with my little group of watches, none of which has cost more than $500, and I’m happy that there’s somewhere I can share my interest in watches without that being an issue. I know that RedBar wouldn’t offer that, but if you ever have a GTG at Pascoes let me know.

                Comment


                • #41
                  Hi Guys

                  Firstly I just need to provide an opposing view to Leroy’s above. I’ve been a member of TKNZ for a while but realistically never posted much as forums aren’t really my thing. Im also a member of RBNZ and have been since day one. I too have a very limited watch budget and have most a collection made up of Seiko’s. One of the things I have always found with RBNZ is total acceptance and support in this hobby regardless of how much my watches are worth. It’s just not an issue at all.

                  Returning to the topic of this thread, I honestly feel that forums in general are becoming less frequented not because of a lack of interest of the hobby but because there are more accessible platforms to meet others who share interests and subsequently share information. It’s a bit like how nobody really uses hardback encyclopaedia’s these days when you can get the same info with a lot less effort.

                  I find it a bit sad really that we are even arguing about this, those that prefer forums use them. Those that prefer other ways to engage the hobby do that.

                  Comment


                  • #42
                    Hi TKNZ members

                    I stopped being an active member here for a number of reasons. I have always considered TKNZ a good place to learn about and discuss watches. For the most part I think the active community here are all great people and the historic content was exceptional (world class even). I may start posting here again as I would not like to see TKNZ die. I also was happy to contribute financially (and did so) when TKNZ needed money to get back on its feet.

                    The reasons:

                    1. My opinion on the Redbar effect. This has in my opinion been massively over inflated by some members here. Redbar is a different format of watch appreciation to a more traditional, and perhaps more limited, internet forum. I believe that the two groups could and perhaps should, exist harmoniously and compliment each other. We are all watch lovers after all. Unfortunately there are some here that appear to obstinately refuse to see Redbar as anything other than a threat to their personal sense of self worth. This is unfortunate.

                    2. There were no regular events or GTG's organised or happening at TKNZ. TKNZ became a little stale and boring, this was starting to become obvious well before I even knew about the global Redbar movement.

                    3. Some members of TKNZ irritated me with their increasingly arrogant viewpoints. Those individuals that relentlessly pontificate the inconsequential. Those that make accusations and grossly over reach. Individuals that would dither over even offering the lowest level of support to fellow members impacted by the Christchurch attack, as one example. Interestingly enough, Redbar NZ, in contrast, teemed up with New Zealands own Magrette watches and auctioned two watches to raise thousands of dollars for those impacted by the tragedy. I salute Dion's leadership here and would encourage everyone to support such a great NZ company like Magrette. I am currently saving to buy another and a few Seiko's of course!

                    4. Issues accessing TKNZ and posting pictures made it a chore to be active here.

                    5. My wife and I added a second child shortly before I stopped frequenting TKNZ. I found myself increasingly busy with family and work commitments. Something had to give. Ultimately I chose Redbar over TKNZ to spend my decreasing amount of time dedicated to obsessing over watches. Quite simply, it was more convenient, more fun and far more active. Everyone there is very friendly and welcoming. You can collect Seiko, Casio or Patek and you are treated equally. In fact a good Seiko 5 collection garners as much interest as the exotic swiss watches at gtg's.

                    6. Ultimately I think I agree with many posts above. TKNZ used to be great, I would like to see it be great again. But if it dies, there are other alternatives that will greatly soften the loss.

                    I hope to see you all at a watch event some time soon. I am fortunate enough to share regular meals and watch chats with many formerly active TKNZ members. TKNZ in that regard, will never die, perhaps it is just evolving.

                    very kind regards

                    Scott.

                    Comment


                    • #43
                      Originally posted by LeroyC View Post

                      To be honest mate I don’t think that you yourself or the fact that you started another group was ever a problem. I was never very involved in whatever went down and I felt some sympathy for people like Jacob who seemed to genuinely want the two to work together and were frustrated by the fact that it didn’t. In saying that there were some other members that were new to both groups who seemed quite happy to just shit on TKNZ and use it for their own gain. And I’ve said it before - as someone of very limited means I’ve always felt welcome as a member of TKNZ, and my $50 watch could sit happily next to someone’s $15k Swiss watch without either one of us batting an eyelid. Until a couple of people came along and that all changed. Those people were also keen initial members of RedBar. Maybe just a coincidence, but it didn’t feel that way. I know it’s probably hard to understand when you’ve got multiple watches in your box that are worth 4 times as much as my car, that’s just the way of the world I guess. I’m happy with my little group of watches, none of which has cost more than $500, and I’m happy that there’s somewhere I can share my interest in watches without that being an issue. I know that RedBar wouldn’t offer that, but if you ever have a GTG at Pascoes let me know.
                      See mate, there’s one of the issues right there. All watches are welcome. Seiko are as prominent as anything. I love my SKX as much as any of my watches. And at GTG’s it’s quite often the obscure cheap watches that get the most interest. So you’re assumption that RedBar wouldn’t offer that is just plain incorrect.


                      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                      noiseorchard@gmail.com

                      Comment


                      • #44
                        Hi gents, I would respectfully ask that this RedBar issue is shelved. We aren't going to get anywhere if we keep digging up old bones. I believe that those affected should step back, and forgive and forget. There is absolutely no reason why the two groups can't coexist as both 'entities' are bigger than the personal differences that divide them. While it has been a contributing factor in our slow down, it is far from being the most important one. Personally, I'm pleased to see so many members replying to this thread. Thanks jewels, pando and waikato7 for your input
                        Preparation and planning prevent piss poor performance

                        Comment


                        • kiwi.bloke
                          kiwi.bloke commented
                          Editing a comment
                          Why is it referred to as the ‘RedBar’ incident/issue in any case? In my mind / memory it was always the gold iwc thread. Certainly when I detailed my thoughts that is how I recalled the thread - and it certainly is one of the couple I referenced that gave me pause over how it evolved.

                          It’s a valid comment that we should be able to coexist. Definitely instagram and I assume a closed Facebook page should be able to compliment a forum. Also true that formats and how people post and share are evolving. Even for some Instagram is old hat and Facebook is old School! Frankly I’ve never mastered instagram so maybe I need to wait for the next big thing.
                          Last edited by kiwi.bloke; 12-06-19, 11:13.

                        • kiwi.bloke
                          kiwi.bloke commented
                          Editing a comment
                          There was an earlier thread I seem to recall where an eyebrow or something was raised over using the forum to arrange or inform when the RedBar group was meeting? Again not sure why the are being lumped together?

                      • #45
                        Originally posted by waikato7 View Post

                        See mate, there’s one of the issues right there. All watches are welcome. Seiko are as prominent as anything. I love my SKX as much as any of my watches. And at GTG’s it’s quite often the obscure cheap watches that get the most interest. So you’re assumption that RedBar wouldn’t offer that is just plain incorrect.


                        Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                        I’m actually really pleased to hear that. That wasn’t the impression I was given by one person in particular right at the very start and I guess I’ve just wrongly assumed that’s how it was. I’m not in Wellington so I’m still unlikely to join, but as I said happy to hear the group is more welcoming of all than I was led to believe.

                        Comment

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