Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Russian and Soviet Watches - my collection and a bit of history

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Wow, thats a solid start to your membership/contribution...


    Theres a wee band of ruskie lovers here, you probably know already.



    Almost wonder if we shouldn't suggest that you have your very own special sub-forum lol

    Hey, seriously though, great watches, posts, enthusiasm, research, computer skills but mostly welcome to this tiny Kiwi watch forum
    Harlan
    Timekeeper Watch Club
    Auckland, New Zealand, Pacific Ocean, Earth

    Comment


    • #17
      Great interesting and educational post Gauss! Thumbs up for the tinkering too!
      I remember cracking an automatic watch open when I was young - parts flying everywhere! I had to hide that misadventure from my parents!
      "at least it won't be a down-trou" - Dean Barker 07/09/2013 (PDT)

      Comment


      • #18
        Welcome aboard Gauss. What a fantastic first post. Love those elongated hour markers on the segment dial..reminds me of the tao te ching



        or the compositions of Ad Reinhardt one of my favourite painters of all time.


        I was a one watch guy until I got my first SEIKO

        Comment


        • #19
          Click image for larger version

Name:	
Views:	0
Size:	132.1 KB
ID:	50491 Hi Gauss, be careful, i remember just buying one and it soon became VERY addictive........
          While i'm not as good as i once was.....i'm as good once as i ever was.......!

          Comment


          • #20
            Wow Scouser, quite the collection indeed! These oddball pieces definitely have some sort of weird way of reeling people into a collection they never thought they would have

            Funny you should mention the addictive effect - see below for my own email inbox as of last night, another post-Soviet model on the way.....

            Click image for larger version

Name:	Polar Fnl.jpg
Views:	0
Size:	102.2 KB
ID:	50503

            Correct black bezel as per the catalogue, true 24 hour movement and dial, correct post-USSR cities on the outer bezel (Yekaterinburg is correctly displayed after the city of Sverdlovsk was renamed in 1991), all in great condition - couldn't let someone else snap it up!

            G

            Comment


            • #21
              Now that comrade, is a true classic....a real icon, well done......
              While i'm not as good as i once was.....i'm as good once as i ever was.......!

              Comment


              • #22
                I think you guys have just convinced me that I need a couple of Russian watches - one new, one old at least. It’s probably the logical replacement for not being able to collect vintage Japanese pieces anymore now that they’re all ridiculously over priced.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by LeroyC View Post
                  I think you guys have just convinced me that I need a couple of Russian watches - one new, one old at least. It’s probably the logical replacement for not being able to collect vintage Japanese pieces anymore now that they’re all ridiculously over priced.
                  I'd definitely recommend finding a cheap one that you like and see how you enjoy the design/size. They are considerably more affordable even in good/excellent condition and if you like what you get you might have a new realm of collecting to explore!

                  I toyed with the idea of possibly buying a Lord Marvel/King Seiko a while back and once I saw what they were going for I gave up on that idea fairly quickly. I'm not a Japanese watch expert by any means but NZD $500 plus for a vintage piece that I don't know much about seemed too risky. Seiko have a lot of nice options in their current lineups for that same price!

                  G

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Gauss View Post

                    I'd definitely recommend finding a cheap one that you like and see how you enjoy the design/size. They are considerably more affordable even in good/excellent condition and if you like what you get you might have a new realm of collecting to explore!

                    I toyed with the idea of possibly buying a Lord Marvel/King Seiko a while back and once I saw what they were going for I gave up on that idea fairly quickly. I'm not a Japanese watch expert by any means but NZD $500 plus for a vintage piece that I don't know much about seemed too risky. Seiko have a lot of nice options in their current lineups for that same price!

                    G
                    Me 2. Been enabled into a couple of Ruski watches myself. Even thinking of Seagull to give me a couple of Russian and Chinese watches to beat up the Japan and Swiss ones. Almost certainly a Vostok Amphibian SE 710B32 and feel curiously drawn to the Bronze Amphibian as well.
                    Last edited by kiwi.bloke; 14-06-19, 13:56.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Hi Gauss,

                      A belated welcome to the forum, and my apologies for taking so long to respond to this post, but I have enjoyed reading through your presentation of the watches, more than once actually Thank you for the references that you made to me and my humble write-up, and it is a privilege to have someone of your obvious capacity joining us. You are not as new at this as you admit to be, I can tell ...You are well-versed in the art of appreciation, and most likely have shared your passion for the things you value or collect with others on a regular basis.

                      Your approach to watches is unlike the majority of collectors—myself often included—whose views are usually limited by the need to place a certain watch within an evolutionary time-line of some sort. Search for watch reviews on the Internet, and what we find often repeats itself, as if they are copied from each other. We collectors dwell on, and often get caught up in, the progression from The 1st Model > 2nd > 3rd > etc… The best of us often know these trivial facts by memory.

                      Indeed, when most enthusiasts look at a vintage watch, we often see it and judge it from our modern frame of value, as in, how-we-feel-towards-it-now is all the worth that timepiece ever had or has…. Not you, Gauss… you give proper respect to that watch by trying to appreciate it in the actual space and time that the piece existed when new. You remove our present-day value from your object of admiration, and see it as it lived, in its time, in its place, among the social values that existed at the time.

                      It is refreshing, and much needed in the watch world today.

                      From my review post that you kindly linked to, you already know that I have owned quite a number of Russian watches. However, nearly all have been Vostok, and I know little about Raketa. Being a watch enthusiast does mean, though, that I need to understand the links between and validities of Russian watch manufacturers, whose structure and relationship with each other are not so straight-cut. Thanks to your contribution, I have learned more about Raketa movements.

                      Not being any kind expert in this arena, I can only add some comments here and there about what you posted. The first one of interest is late-1980s Raketa Cal 2609.1





                      Like many, the first thing that comes to mind on the mention of Russian manual-winding movement is the image of a workhorse movement, designed more towards robustness, durability, and low maintenance, than to precision. I don’t normally think of the Russian manual-winds are high-grade, but in the above image, zoomed in from yours, I see a few elements this caliber shares with this 1971 IWC Cal 41. Can you see what they are?





                      One is very hard to see, while the other two are in plain sight.





                      The red arrow points to a Swiss Incabloc shock-protection device, not found in Vostok movements, which use their own in-house shock device. The blue arrow points to the balance wheel, or rather, the gold-tone screws on the balance wheel. This is something one would normally associate with higher-grade Swiss movements up to the 1950s. The green arrow points the Breguet over-coil on the hairspring.

                      In modern movements, including those of Russia, we don’t find these three features together very often. Here’s a current A Lange & Söhne Cal L941.1 found in the Saxonia.





                      While I’m by no means saying the the Raketa 2609.1 was a high-grade movement, it did certainly have some features one would find in earlier Swiss high-grades.

                      The other movement that I’d like to comment on is the Cal 2609.HA






                      Other members may have zoomed into the photos, and wonder why the OP called this the 2609.NA, when the stamping is actually 2609.HA Well, it was not a mistake, but in Cyrillic script, the symbol “H” is pronounced “En”, thus some people prefer to use the more phonetically-correct 2609.NA. Though Raketa themselves might side more with the HA, as 2609.HA is what they call this caliber, still in current production… http://raketa.com/en/mouvments/raketa-2609-ha/


                      You’ve most likely have seen this next Russian hand-winding movements that originated from a 1960s caliber, and like the 2609.HA, is still being made today, though in quite limited quantity, as far as I’m aware.









                      It’s a Vostok Cal 2409, or in the version pictured above, the 2409.01 version. During the same period that the Raketa 2609 was first introduced, Vostok (then, Wostok), manufactured the predecessor to this Cal 2409, the Cal 2214 18 Jewels. The 2214 was the movement that equipped the Vostok Amphibia Type 350 worn by Yuri Viktorovitch Romanenko on the Soyuz 38 mission. The 2214 was later enlarged and became the 2409.01 that you see above.

                      There are a number of technical differences between your Raketa 2609 and the Vostok 2409. Major ones being the movement diameter (26mm vs 24mm), shock device (Incabloc vs Vostok’s proprietary), and direct-driven seconds hand (Raketa) vs indirect-driven seconds (Vostok)... The watch above, BTW is my Vostok Classica, a limited production model made in homage to their Wostok dress watches of the 1960s. The Classica was released early last year (2018), and I ended up I purchasing two—the charcoal gray above, and one in mid-night blue that I still own.


                      Originally posted by Gauss View Post
                      Click image for larger version Name:	SE 710.jpg Views:	1 Size:	35.1 KB ID:	50347 Click image for larger version Name:	20190610_153542.jpg Views:	1 Size:	36.1 KB ID:	50348

                      This is my most recent purchase. I have seen multiple people on other forums advise that vintage Russian watches have 30 metres water resistance – keep 30 metres away from water at all times! So I figured I would buy one of the “Special Edition” versions of this popular classic diver so I can wear a Russian watch without worrying about the rain or washing the dishes. This is a time-only 710B32 SE reference of the Amphibia, with a funky beat rate at 19800 per hour. I haven't opened the back just yet as it's basically brand new so I have used a stock photo of the 2415.01 movement.
                      ...
                      The basis of the design for the above Amphibia can be seen in a few of their earlier designs from the 1970s, only with the removal of the date complication and a larger case.

                      Click image for larger version Name:	Vostok Catalogue 1976.jpg Views:	1 Size:	173.4 KB ID:	50346

                      With this heroic watch being down my alley, I’d like to offer an alternative “origin story”, if I may?

                      You quoted the Reference as being “710B32 SE”, and that is correct. However, Vostok Amphibia’s models are differentiated by the case, and referred to as “Type”. So, your new-found friend is Type 710, with the “B32” being the variant of the Type. The Amphibia Special Edition (SE) are based on the Amphibia Classic, so the 710SE comes from the Amphibia Classic Type 710, and the 710 case is also known as the “Ministry” case, i.e. Amphibia Ministry.

                      Your specific model is the second generation of the Type 710, which received some revision just 6 months ago. Generation I of the 710 first appeared, to my knowledge, around 2007, and was nicknamed “Ministry” right away to differentiate it from the Type 420, also still in production. Here are photos of mine soaked in the rain at Lake Tekapo in 2012... and no, it doesn't have to be the Special Edition to have 200m dive capability







                      You’ll notice the slight difference in the case, with a more pronounced shoulder. These Amphibia Classic and their SE stablemate use the same stainless steel case--just different case finish, case back, bezel, and crown--and thus are equally resistant to the elements.

                      Anyway, these Type 710 are not entirely new design, and are actually based on a much older Amphibia from 1980. Here’s an image from a 1980 brochure, posted by a WUS member whom I have learned enormously from regarding Vostoks, schnurrp.








                      The brochure seems to show that this was also a Type 710, but Russian watch enthusiasts have retrospectively nicknamed them the “Old Ministry”. This would be the actual ancestor of your 710SE. However, a mystery has surfaced, because while looking through old reference files that I have for these, I happen to spot another of schnurrp’s scan—this time of a 1983 brochure. Do you see the watch being presented in the hand on the right (left hand)?





                      Now, tell me if that doesn’t look like someone you know ...It looks to me like an Old Ministry, with a dial similar to yours, but without an elapse time bezel, again like yours... What is this mystery watch? Maybe no one knows, and maybe you could be the one to tell the Russian watch collecting world?
                      Last edited by Don; 15-06-19, 07:17.
                      On the instruments we entrust to pace our lives, to bear witness to our days, and to be the keepers of the most precious thing we have... time.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Here is my Штирманские. Found in a junk shop in my home country a couple of years ago. Serviced locally and running mint :-)

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Thank you Don for your very informative reply! You are quite obviously a lot more in the know than I am, especially when comparing the features of the Soviet movements to the Swiss and German ones. I have read that the Soviets "borrowed" a fair amount of Swiss innovation for their own industry, for lack of a better word . I was aware that all Amphibias have the same features to give them the 200m water resistance, I just liked the this particular SE reference dial a bit more than the standard issues (not to say I won't end up with some of them all the same!) Your photos from Lake Tekapo are very nice.

                          As for the Vostok Classica I have been checking online retailers almost daily for restocks the past month or so, and anything except the black dial/gold case seem to unobtainable at the moment, if you ever feel like you need to move it on be sure to send me a PM!

                          (Side note: how did you get all those pictures into one post? I tried that but it would not let me have more than 5 attachments, unless you posted IMG links from an image hosting website?)




                          Originally posted by Airdynamic View Post
                          Here is my Штирманские. Found in a junk shop in my home country a couple of years ago. Serviced locally and running mint :-)
                          A Russian mechanical chronograph is definitely something I want to pick up at some point, nice Shturmanskie indeed!

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Airdynamic View Post
                            Here is my Штирманские. Found in a junk shop in my home country a couple of years ago. Serviced locally and running mint :-)

                            Okay, I need to visit your home country ...soon.

                            Ancient alchemy adhered to the principle “in sterquiliniis invenitur”–in filth it shall be found. While mechanical manual-wind chronographs didn’t exist in medieval times, I’m sure that people back then, if they were to hear of a group called Timekeeper, they surely would have thought we’re a band of magicians ...We are, in many ways, magicians of the modern world.

                            My point is, despite you having found your Sturmanskie in a place of “filth”, I’m glad that you treated your find as not junk, but a thing of value that it actually is. One
                            can almost say that this watch is a thing of myth and legend, because it has been outside this world and back. Accompanying its journey, earthbound men saw fire, fury, akin to the chariot of the gods.

                            ...because that is what rocket boosters upon launch looks like.


                            The watch you have is a Soviet Air Force Sturmanskie, issued in the 1980s, and equipped with a modified Poljot Cal 3133 chronograph, Cal 31659. Apart from being a pilot/navigator chrono, this watch has been to space on the wrists (and sometimes upper arms!) of many cosmonauts, including on the Soyuz TM-16/MIR-13 expedition and Soyez TM-11 mission. In 1993, board engineer Alexander Poleshuk spent six months in space with a Sturmanskie Chronograph 31659 strapped to him, during which he conducted numerous EVA (space walks) while wearing this watch.









                            Here is a Japanese cosmonaut, Toyohiro Akiyama, on the Soyez TM-11 to the Mir Space Station, also wearing a Sturmanskie 31659 like yours.



                            Image source: Russian Times
                            Last edited by Don; 15-06-19, 23:59.
                            On the instruments we entrust to pace our lives, to bear witness to our days, and to be the keepers of the most precious thing we have... time.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Gauss View Post
                              ...
                              (Side note: how did you get all those pictures into one post? I tried that but it would not let me have more than 5 attachments,...
                              Um.. with a bit of patience... and plenty of petroleum jelly





                              I use an external image host, yes ...I personally prefer it that way as it doesn't burden our server, and I have full control over the future accessibility of the images I post.
                              On the instruments we entrust to pace our lives, to bear witness to our days, and to be the keepers of the most precious thing we have... time.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Don View Post


                                Okay, I need to visit your home country ...soon.

                                Ancient alchemy adhered to the principle “in sterquiliniis invenitur”–in filth it shall be found. While mechanical manual-wind chronographs didn’t exist in medieval times, I’m sure that people back then, if they were to hear of a group called Timekeeper, they surely would have thought we’re a band of magicians ...We are, in many ways, magicians of the modern world.

                                My point is, despite you having found your Sturmanskie in a place of “filth”, I’m glad that you treated your find as not junk, but a thing of value that it actually is. One
                                can almost say that this watch is a thing of myth and legend, because it has been outside this world and back. Accompanying its journey, earthbound men saw fire, fury, akin to the chariot of the gods.

                                ...because that is what rocket boosters upon launch looks like.


                                The watch you have is a Soviet Air Force Sturmanskie, issued in the 1980s, and equipped with a modified Poljot Cal 3133 chronograph, Cal 31659. Apart from being a pilot/navigator chrono, this watch has been to space on the wrists (and sometimes upper arms!) of many cosmonauts, including on the Soyuz TM-16/MIR-13 expedition and Soyez TM-11 mission. In 1993, board engineer Alexander Poleshuk spent six months in space with a Sturmanskie Chronograph 31659 strapped to him, during which he conducted numerous EVA (space walks) while wearing this watch.









                                Here is a Japanese cosmonaut, Toyohiro Akiyama, on the Soyez TM-11 to the Mir Space Station, also wearing a Sturmanskie 31659 like yours.



                                Image source: Russian Times
                                What a great post mate. Yes it was in deed laying rough but not any more :-)

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X