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Intriguing watch - DALIL Moslems

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  • Intriguing watch - DALIL Moslems

    This watch is catalogued for auction in Germany. Looks very intriguing. Its a DALIL Moslems watch, calibre AS 2063. As per the auction house, the watch is dated around 1975, self-winding. The hands in centre compass orients towards Mecca. Does anyone know the history of this brand? Or any other information?

    The images are taken from the auction site.

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  • #2
    Wow, definitely a interesting hand configuration. The brand history would be interesting too.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by vm100in View Post
      ...Does anyone know the history of this brand? Or any other information?
      ...
      Intriguing would definitely be the right word, Vish. Thanks for sharing and I very much appreciate your recent input and participation on TKNZ... I have not seen a Dalil branded timepiece before, so am learning right along side you. However, if one lives in certain parts of the world, such instrument would not be that out of the ordinary.

      This piece incorporates a Qibla compass. In Islam, qibla is the direction of Ka'abah in Mecca, relative to a person's geographical location, and some type of qibla indicating compass has been in use for six centuries now. This happens to be the wrist watch version of the 1970s, and the indicator is, of course, separate from the movement aspect of the watch. Regarding the movement, this Dalil is powered by an automatic produced by A. Schild, a movement manufacturer, and I have commented on A. Schild on these posts...

      https://www.timekeeper.co.nz/forum/w...=5805#post5805

      https://www.timekeeper.co.nz/forum/w...6927#post56927


      The AS 2030 would have been made during the twilight of A. Schild, prior to its merge with ETA... Going back to qibla compass watches, modern watches that support Islamic prayer practices are still made, like this Casio...





      Though I don't think the Casio incorporates any qibla indicator, and I'm sure phone apps have also taken over the role.
      On the instruments we entrust to pace our lives, to bear witness to our days, and to be the keepers of the most precious thing we have... time.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Don View Post

        Intriguing would definitely be the right word, Vish. Thanks for sharing and I very much appreciate your recent input and participation on TKNZ... I have not seen a Dalil branded timepiece before, so am learning right along side you. However, if one lives in certain parts of the world, such an instrument would not be that out of the ordinary.This piece incorporates a Qibla compass. In Islam, qibla is the direction of Ka'abah in Mecca, relative to a person's geographical location, and some type of qibla indicating compass has been in use for six centuries now. This happens to be the wrist watch version of the 1970s, and the indicator is, of course, separate from the movement aspect of the watch. Regarding the movement, this Dalil is powered by an automatic produced by A. Schild, a movement manufacturer, and I have commented on A. Schild on these posts....
        Thanks very much for the insights, Don. Much appreciated. I have a lot to learn, and I rely on the knowledge and expertise of the members of this forum such as yourself. I see a lot of unknown brands (at least for me) from the 70s with mechanical movements. I shall certainly read more on the pre 70s movements and makers.

        Another one I saw recently was a brand called Velan with a Peseux 7000 movement. A beautiful watch, and even though I don't know much about the movement, I have half a mind to buy it just for its looks!


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        • #5
          Originally posted by Kronos View Post

          Thanks very much for the insights, Don. Much appreciated. I have a lot to learn, and I rely on the knowledge and expertise of the members of this forum such as yourself. I see a lot of unknown brands (at least for me) from the 70s with mechanical movements...
          You're very welcome, Vish. We all have a lot of learn, myself included, so discussions like this allows us all to walk away with something. Re brands of the 1970s, you will indeed come across a lot of lesser known brands, some of which may have giants of their era that are worth knowing about, while many others are going be mushroom brands. Among Swiss watches, there were two large manufacturing conglomerates during the early-70s, SSIH whose flagship brand was Omega, and ASUAG, whose flagship was Longines (surprise? ). Outside of these two groups, the rest of the Swiss watch industry was actually made up of hundreds of small time producers who assembled and marketed watches made from components purchased, i.e. exactly like the current state of the Chinese watch industry.

          Today, the narrative we hear is that the Swiss watch industry turmoil of the 1970s was caused by superior mechanical Swiss craftsmanship being invaded by cheap quartz technology from Japan. The truth, actually, was that in 1970s the Swiss did dominate the watch market globally, but it did so not because of "Haute Horologie", but because nearly half (44%) of their annual production was made up of inexpensive pin-lever watches that used low-grade Roskopf or pin-pallet escapement. These cheap watches were traditionally sold through chemists and convenient stores during the 70s. The Quartz watches did not kill high-end horology, which still exists today, but killed Swiss pin-lever watches, which are no longer made.

          That is the reason why you'll come across many no-name brands from the 70s.


          Originally posted by Kronos View Post
          ...Velan with a Peseux 7000 movement. A beautiful watch, and even though I don't know much about the movement, I have half a mind to buy it just for its looks!

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          I'm very glad that the other half of your mind told you to show it to us first

          This one is unfortunately not a Peseux 7000, which was an ultra-thin manual-winding movement with sub-seconds manufactured in the 1960s, and still being made today in the guise of ETA/Peseux 7001 (see https://www.timekeeper.co.nz/forum/w...6098#post56098 ). If the movement were to be a Peseux 7000, then none of those sub-dial would be functional. If the sub-dials do function and the watch self-winds, I would take a guess that the calibre driving them is a modified Chinese TY2876, originally of Seagull, though I doubt this is a Seagull OEM.
          On the instruments we entrust to pace our lives, to bear witness to our days, and to be the keepers of the most precious thing we have... time.

          Comment


          • #6
            This is brilliant! I am glad I posted it here and did not go with the "other" half of my mind. Thanks very much for the wonderful insight into the Swiss watch industry of the 70s. I always thought the quartz revolution caused the decline of most of the Swiss watch industry and did know about the pin-lever watches. Can't wait to show-off this new found knowledge to someone ;-)

            Regarding this watch, I have asked the company for clarification on the movement. Now, I am curious to know the movement this watch features.

            Comment


            • #7
              Cool! All good.


              Originally posted by Kronos View Post
              ...

              Regarding this watch, I have asked the company for clarification on the movement. Now, I am curious to know the movement this watch features.
              As the watch looks quite small and thin, the movement could also be quartz, and if so, possibly Citizen/Miyota. Do feel free to post a link to the item, as many here who are seasoned buyers can often tell a lot from the way an item is presented. In my own experience, a sad fact about registered businesses that sell used/vintage watches--whether they have a storefront, are online, on eBay, or TradeMe--is that the vast majority understand watches about as much as pimps understand women. Also akin to pimps in that these individuals often only look for what they get out of them monetarily.

              Look forward to hearing more about your quest
              On the instruments we entrust to pace our lives, to bear witness to our days, and to be the keepers of the most precious thing we have... time.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Don View Post
                Cool! All good.




                As the watch looks quite small and thin, the movement could also be quartz, and if so, possibly Citizen/Miyota. Do feel free to post a link to the item, as many here who are seasoned buyers can often tell a lot from the way an item is presented....
                Look forward to hearing more about your quest
                Sure, will post more info as soon as I hear from the auction house. In the meantime, this is the link to the watch: https://www.henrys.de/index.php?pc=c...=0&DSPagerRB=0

                Comment


                • #9
                  Got a reply. They didn't answer my question about the movement, but they did send me the images of the movement.

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                  • #10
                    Thank you for the updated information and link. I've had a good look at the listing, and see that it includes photos of the movement that you've also posted above. To me, this is still all very odd, but after some consideration, I would conclude with these points:

                    1. The movement does seem to be a Peseux 7000, but a gilt stock module, not "rhodium-plated" as in the description (rhodium-plating would be silver-tone). Apart from the Peseux hallmark, it is unsigned, and thus likely a purchased drop-in unmodified caliber. Peseux 7000 is, as mentioned before, a two-hand plus sub-seconds, no complications. The ETA/Peseux 7001 that Blancpain made into a complications with Day, Date, and Moonphase, is heavily modified and almost unrecognizable from a stock Peseux.

                    2. The movement is not a modified Chinese TY2876, as was one of my guesses, because the diameter of the TY2876 is actually larger than the case width of this watch.

                    3. The case is akin to a dress watch made in the 60s, but the dial looks like something from post-2000. A Swiss dress watch from such an era would more likely be marked "SWISS", as opposed to "SWISS MADE", which is more the standard post-2000. Looking at the dial script in magnification, you'll notice the poor quality of the script, in particular "VELAN" that uses a font and lack of sharpness that we frequently see on low-quality Chinese no-name brands of the last two decades.





                    4. I do not think that the sub-dials on this watch actually function ...That is, the time function might work, and the Date and Moonphase might cycle upon the press of the side pushers, but I don't believe they, along with the Day and Month, are connected to the movement. Thus, they will not change. We would term this faux complications, i.e. just for appearance and do not work. We find faux complications in low-priced counterfeit watches that pose as "chronographs", but can't time anything like one.

                    5. You will find exactly zero reference online to any watch company called "Velan". Bad news to begin with ..Neither can one find another watch on the Internet that resembles this watch.

                    6. I can't work out what the "FA" inside the star, inside the Date sub-dial, refers to, though I think it would be a further waste of time to research, and might not mean anything.

                    So, I would say, looking at all this, that this is a made-up watch, not exactly a replica nor a Franken-watch, but a way to case a movement so that the watch passes off as something it is not. It a faux (or fake) complications watch, and therefore not genuinely what it claims to be. The lesson here is when a seller tells you something, and the watch tells you something, always believe the watch.
                    Last edited by Don; 16-06-20, 01:12.
                    On the instruments we entrust to pace our lives, to bear witness to our days, and to be the keepers of the most precious thing we have... time.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Thanks, Don, for detailed insights. Overall, a shady item with no clear information. I would stay clear of this one for sure. Glad I posted this before putting in any bids.


                      Originally posted by Don View Post
                      Thank you for the updated information and link. I've had a good look at the listing, and see that it includes photos of the movement that you've also posted above.
                      They didn't have the photo of the movement earlier. I think they posted this after I raised the question about the movement.

                      Originally posted by Don View Post
                      I do not think that the sub-dials on this watch actually function
                      Wow! I didn't expect that. I would expect a major auction house not to sell such items, or at least have a detailed condition report with the watch. Some of them say "condition report on request", and some others don't say anything. In any case, the onus is on the buyer.

                      Originally posted by Don View Post
                      You will find exactly zero reference online to any watch company called "Velan". Bad news to begin with ..Neither can one find another watch on the Internet that resembles this watch.
                      True! I have been trying to find out about the brand since I posted this. As you said, ZERO reference. Not even a picture.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Again, you're welcome, Kronos ...If you like this aesthetic, i.e. multi-complications with moon phase, there are a number of other watches to look into, vintage and current, mechanical and quartz. Just let us know if you want suggestions.
                        On the instruments we entrust to pace our lives, to bear witness to our days, and to be the keepers of the most precious thing we have... time.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Yes please. I would very much like to get suggestions. I really like this model, though I only have one working watch (Tissot Bascule T92151651). I do have 2 other vintage watches (Waltham and Hamilton) which I purchased in 2013. Both in deplorable condition. I hope to get it running, though it might prove to be expensive.

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                          • #14
                            Thanks for sharing photos of your Hamilton and Waltham, Kronos. I wish I were knowledgeable enough about these to identify them by sight, but unfortunately, they are outside of my area of expertise. My focus of interest is mainly on post-1960 watches, and all I can tell is that your manual-wind watches are 1930s to 1950s, i.e. mid-20th Century. I do know, though, that they came from the golden age of American hand-wind movements, with the peak of Hamilton wristwatches being legends like the Hamilton Cal. 770 of the 50s.

                            The handful of Benrus, US Bulova, and Hamilton that I’ve owned over the years have been post-1960, and I have made observations about them on this TradeMe listing, from way back in 2012. It was for a 1964 Bulova Regatta 23, powered by the last ever American-made mechanical movement… https://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Lis...x?id=448322468


                            Originally posted by Kronos View Post
                            Yes please. I would very much like to get suggestions...
                            I’ll throw in a handful of pointers, and leave it to other members to suggest more. I’ll start with a vintage quartz from the 1980s, though this is no ordinary battery watch. In 1983, Seiko introduced the Cal. 7A28—the world's first analogue-display quartz chronograph, pre-dating both the Jaeger-LeCoultre/IWC Cal. 631 and Piguet Cal 1270/1 Rattrapante. The Quartz Chronograph 7A48-7009 from 1988, pictured below, was also called "The Tide Watch" and features a true moon phase complication.









                            The 7A48 has traditional mechanical looks and feel, but has quartz-accurate timekeeping. They were also one of Seiko’s most expensive mainstream watches of the late-80s. The movement is fully-jeweled (15 jewels), with all-metal gears (no plastic parts), and has a calibration pot that allows for simple regulation by the user.





                            The 7A48 came in several variants with the -7009 above having a 39 mm diameter, while this 7A48-7020 has a smaller 35 mm case:



                            Image source: alienwearer, TheWatchSite


                            Next is a current model Citizen Eco-Drive AP1052-00A with true moon phase function, and a case of 42 mm excl. crown…





                            Among the Japanese Manufactures, Citizen would, IMO, be the best at quartz complications, but the master of mechanical complications would be Orient. For smaller wrists, Orient has a quartz multi-complications with moon phase, the Orient Classic RN-KA0002S. This is 35 mm across.





                            If you are interested in mechanical, here’s a selection…

                            First one is also an Orient, the Orient Automatic AK0002S00B, though note that the “Sun & Moon” feature on this movement is only a Day&Night wheel. That is, not a true moon phase complication, but the aesthetic is there. It is 42 mm.





                            For a true mechanical moon phase, Orient’s mid-range sub-brand, Orient Star has one, the Orient Star Mechanical Moon Phase RK-AM0001S. 41 mm in diameter, this is the most expensive watch here.





                            Other masters of complications in modern mechanical are the Chinese Manufactures, and largest mechanical movement manufacturer in the world is Seagull. One model with moon phase theme, though in actual fact, only a Day&Night indicator is the Sea-Gull Multi-functional Self-winding D2869S. 39 mm, not easy to come by, but with some effort, can still be had new for not much.





                            A true moon phase complication can be had in the much-acclaimed Sea-Gull Chronograph M199S, equipped with the Seagull ST1908, a manual-wind column-wheel chronograph with an illustrious history. The case is 41 mm, very hard to find a new one now, but not impossible.



                            Image source: JackisJolly, imgur


                            The last is a Sea-Gull with a Day&Night display, more costly than the true moon phase-equipped M199S, but thought I’d include because why the heck would I leave out a tourbillon? The Sea-Gull Tourbillon Multi-functional 818.907 is 40 mm.





                            A crucial point that must be made is that, when purchasing a Seagull movement, always buy one inside a Sea-Gull branded watch. Avoid anything that isn’t assembled and cased by Tianjin Seagull themselves. Even OEM watches need to be considered on a case by case basis, some are okay (e.g. Sovil et Titus). Seagull is a movement producer, like Time Module Inc. (Seiko) or Citizen Miyota, and just because a watch is fitted with a TMI/Miyota/Seagull movement does not mean that its quality standards would reflect those of Seiko/Citizen/Seagull.

                            But really, why would one want to own a Manufacture’s movement without the name of the Manufacture on the dial?

                            Apart from these, there are many other moon phase watches out there, and I’ll leave those for others to add.
                            On the instruments we entrust to pace our lives, to bear witness to our days, and to be the keepers of the most precious thing we have... time.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Thanks very much, Don. These are beautiful watches! Will go through each one in detail. I particularly liked the Seiko 7A38-702h (looks very much like the Royal Oak) and the Sea-Gull D2869S. When looking at Sea-Gull, I shall make sure to look for the Sea-Gull branded watch.

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