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Look at the dial colour! Wild imaginations on Oris!

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  • Look at the dial colour! Wild imaginations on Oris!


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  • #2
    "Imagination" is the perfect choice of word, Kronos ...It did take some to come up with this one ...This, along with every watch this seller is listing ( https://www.ebay.com/sch/gemini_trad...1&_ipg=&_from= ) is a counterfeit made-up watch. I exclude the HMT ones, because I am not super familiar with this Indian Manufacture. This falls into the category of fakes detailed here... https://www.timekeeper.co.nz/forum/w...-seiko-citizen

    This particular one above was a non-Oris watch of unknown origin, which the seller claims has an "ST96" movement, though doesn't show it. ST96 could be a reference to a Swiss FHF 96 manual-wind 17j (thus the dial) from the mid-1960s. Apart from everything shown, I know it is not an Oris because, at the time this caliber was around, Swiss regulations forbid Oris from manufacturing anything other than low-cost pin-lever movements. You might remember these cheap movements from the "Dalil" thread ( https://www.timekeeper.co.nz/forum/w...9329#post59329 ), and during the 60s and 70s, Oris was one of those pin-lever watch producers.

    Though, to Oris' credit, their pin-levers were among the better ones.

    In a twist of irony, this counterfeit has a movement that would have been too good to be an Oris during the 60s. To my knowledge, Oris also never used FHF modules, and their first outsourced movements were ETA, in the early-80s.
    Last edited by Don; 18-06-20, 21:46.
    On the instruments we entrust to pace our lives, to bear witness to our days, and to be the keepers of the most precious thing we have... time.

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    • #3
      That is one truly awful attempt at a fake Oris. Looks like a high school art project.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Don View Post
        "Imagination" is the perfect choice of word, Kronos ...It did take some to come up with this one ...This, along with every watch this seller is listing ( https://www.ebay.com/sch/gemini_trad...1&_ipg=&_from= ) is a counterfeit made-up watch. I exclude the HMT ones, because I am not super familiar with this Indian Manufacture. This falls into the category of fakes detailed here... https://www.timekeeper.co.nz/forum/w...-seiko-citizen
        There are some colourful HMTs as well, which again are counterfeit, or at least some parts of it. Thanks for the information on the movement, Don. You did explain the pin-lever movement in the "Dalil" thread. Never knew Oris was one of the producers.

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        • #5
          Oh absolutely! The dial is "mind-blowing"

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Kronos View Post
            ...Never knew Oris was one of the producers.
            Yes, it would certainly not be obvious, considering Oris' current brand status in the entry-level luxury Swiss. Off the top of my head, Oris and Timex are the only pin-lever watch manufacturers of the 1960s that are still operating today. Others, like Ingersoll, exist as a resurrection of a name only. IMO, Oris differed from those others in having horological ability and mindset, and once liberated from Switzerland's Watch Statute in late-60s, designed and produced a number of their own in-house lever escapement calibers alongside their existing pin escapement ones.

            That did not last long, however, as Quartz really flushed out their main staple low-cost watches.

            While I'm not properly qualified to comment on 20th Century socio-economic history, I do think watch companies over the ages have excelled due to different factors. Some--like Omega and Seiko--have been incredibly agile despite their sizes, while some--like Rolex, Breitling, and TAG Heuer--worked out sometime ago that people buy watches based on their feelings, only subsequently justifing that decision with reasoning. Others, like Oris, were just lucky to be in the path of opportunity, and giving Oris the benefit of the doubt, I'd say they were prepared to reap the fortune that came their way.

            During most of the 80s and 90s, markets in the West exclusively bought into quartz watches, and Oris, along with the leading Swiss brands, took refuge in Asian markets, that were still receptive to mechanical watches. In the early-90s, Oris went against virtually every mainstream Swiss luxury brand and abandoned quartz movements, adopting an all-mechanical line up. I started my interest during this period, and remember how Oris was a darling of the small crop of buyers who still preferred automatic. Despite their smaller market share compared to the likes of the Swatch Group, Oris was able to establish a foothold where few competitors existed.

            By the time the Mechanical Renaissance spread globally in the early-00s, Oris was in the right spot in the market, at the right time. I don't believe that Oris had foreseen the coming the mechanical revival, but rather, the revival found them. Oris was, for over a decade, one of my favourite brands, and though I don't like the change they went through towards the late-00s, the critique is strictly from a watch purist's point of view. I understand well the commercial sense of what occurred.

            For anyone who likes Oris, I think it is important to know the truth, understand their story, and perhaps like them for all they are. It use to be that when we didn't know something, it was merely a knowledge gap. In today's world, across many facets of life, it is important to find out things for ourselves. Because, if we don't, someone will conveniently give us a narrative that benefits them.
            On the instruments we entrust to pace our lives, to bear witness to our days, and to be the keepers of the most precious thing we have... time.

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            • #7
              Thank you Don, for this fascinating insight. I am noting everything down, lest I forget :-). I really like Oris, and I find their watches pleasing. I ought to read more about their history.

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              • #8
                Definitely do your research, as Oris watches are heavily counterfeited for some strange reasons from what I've seen, which I guess is some kind of weird appreciation for the brand to go to that much effort???????
                Last edited by Artemis12; 20-06-20, 11:11.

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                • #9
                  I agree! I see so many Oris counterfeits. Can't figure out why.

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                  • #10
                    That makes two of us!!!!

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Kronos View Post
                      Thank you Don, for this fascinating insight...
                      Glad to be of some small help, Kronos


                      Originally posted by Kronos View Post
                      ...I really like Oris, and I find their watches pleasing. I ought to read more about their history.
                      I do identify with that, and IMO, Oris strong points are their aesthetic design and market adaptability, both of which have catapulted them into the luxury segment of the 21st Century. It is, however, difficult for newer enthusiasts to find out the full truth about their past. We live in an era where the watch company themselves along with their enthusiast communities—both having vested interest in the promotion of their brand—get to set the narrative about who and what the brand is. Watch enthusiasts are unlike other hobby groups, e.g. car or firearm enthusiasts, in that we tend to uphold—often to the point of enshrining—information told to us by the manufacturer, i.e. the people who have the most reason to manipulate us for financial gain.

                      Information on the brands’ website, those recounted by reviewers, and even Wikipedia entry are often either inaccurate, or framed from a biased perspective. Sadly, this has been a systematic occurrence across most Swiss brands of the last half century, so, not just Oris. Therefore, your best chances are to read “around” it, i.e. corroborate using other sources that have no vested interest in a brand’s image.

                      To be clear, I am, by no means, anti-Oris. As mentioned before, this manufacturer evokes fond memories of the early years of my watch journey. During the early-1990s, I was a university student with very little means of affording expensive watches, but I loved looking at them, reading about them from books I could find in book stores. Back then, my dream watch was not a Rolex Submariner, a Breitling, nor a Omega Moonwatch, but a (still) very much out of reach Oris Automatic Regulateur Ref. 7473.

                      The 36mm watch looked like this…





                      I never really got around to owning one, but a decade or so later, I bought my first Oris watch. Over the nearly 10 years that followed, eight more came and went from my box, and I used to be active on a certain Oris forum before Timekeeper was founded. Here are the Oris that I had, and my partner had two other lady’s models. In chronological order of date of manufacture…


                      1970 Oris Manual-Wind Cal. 671… this is one of the earlier pin-lever watches



                      Early-70s Oris Star Automatic



                      2003 ORIS TT1 WilliamsF1 Chronograph Automatic LE



                      2007 Oris Carlos Coste Chronograph Automatic LE

                      ...If this looks like I was wearing the watch upside down , that's because it sort of was. The Oris Cal. 678 was an ETA/Valjoux 7750 turned upside down.


                      2008 Oris WilliamsF1 Automatic



                      2009 Oris Divers “Titan” 1000m, and TT1 Divers Date 300m



                      2010 Oris Artelier Automatic Chronograph

                      https://www.timekeeper.co.nz/forum/w...75x-case-study


                      2015 Big Crown Automatic Chronograph




                      While I won’t rule out buying an Oris in the future, I admit that I have changed, and more importantly, Oris has changed, no longer the watch producer that they were up til the late-00s. All the better for them, and I guess, all the better for me.
                      On the instruments we entrust to pace our lives, to bear witness to our days, and to be the keepers of the most precious thing we have... time.

                      Comment


                      • Don
                        Don commented
                        Editing a comment
                        Thanks, Artemis12... Leroy, it definitely is, and possibly the most beautiful chronograph watch I've ever own.

                      • Artemis12
                        Artemis12 commented
                        Editing a comment
                        I must add Don, that I still find it incredible how beautiful a dial can be considering its only 40mm +/- and the details are just amazing then add to that the movement and it really is a work of magic that we take for granted. This is why I appreciate all watches, they are all amazing
                        Last edited by Artemis12; 21-06-20, 18:01.

                      • Kronos
                        Kronos commented
                        Editing a comment
                        I agree! This is a gorgeous watch! This is exactly what I meant by pleasing aesthetics. The same goes for Ref 7473. It is a beauty!
                        Last edited by Kronos; 21-06-20, 22:44.

                    • #12
                      Originally posted by Artemis12 View Post
                      ...Oris watches are heavily counterfeited for some strange reasons from what I've seen, which I guess is some kind of weird appreciation for the brand to go to that much effort???????
                      Originally posted by Kronos View Post
                      I agree! I see so many Oris counterfeits. Can't figure out why.
                      I assume you are both referring to counterfeit made-up vintage watch, like the one in the opening post? Because among modern watches, there are only a few Oris models being copied, and we don’t encounter these fake Oris that often. The older watches, like those this eBay seller is listing, aren’t really replica of any actual Oris watch of the past, and merely cottage-industry production of watches made from used parts and rough reproduction. They just happen to wear the Oris name, along with Seiko, Citizen, and a few other less-common Swiss brand names.

                      All seem to originate in India, and find their way abroad through eBay. I have seen a number of these rough counterfeits being sold on Yahoo!Japan, often by Japanese second-hand goods dealers, presumably unaware that these are not genuine. I have never lived in India, nor know of any Indian collector who could educate me on the matter, so can only rely on reading. There seems to be a small industry in India that assembles these from parts that, in most other developed countries, would be discarded.

                      From reading, I’ve learned that the Indian watch industry, from around 1960-1990, was made up almost exclusively of locally produced watches—HMT and later, Titan. Post-1990, Indian watch buyers had a preference of imported brands, so am assuming that Seiko and Citizen would have been a part of those. I couldn’t find any reference to Oris having been available in India at the time, but imagine that some would have been independently imported. Whether enough to have had some following, I don't know.

                      A wild guess would be that many of these homemade watches were branded Oris simply because “ORIS” is easy to print on the dial?

                      As for modern era counterfeit Oris, these are usually manufactured in China, and range from B-grade recognizable-model copies equipped with quartz movement…





                      ...to the best replica currently for an Oris Divers Sixty-Five Ref. 7720, powered by a fully-functioning copy of an ETA 2836, which is similar to the Sellita movement used by Oris. The quality of finish on the movement would be crude, compared to a genuine, but I can see how this may convince untrained or inexperienced eyes.






                      (All images in this post are from the Internet, edited, and used here for non-commercial purpose. If you own these pictures and object their use here, please contact me through TKNZ)
                      Last edited by Don; 21-06-20, 08:19.
                      On the instruments we entrust to pace our lives, to bear witness to our days, and to be the keepers of the most precious thing we have... time.

                      Comment


                      • #13
                        Thank-you Don for taking the time to research and post. It's very much appreciated and gives great insight

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                        • Don
                          Don commented
                          Editing a comment
                          I appreciate that. Thank you

                      • #14
                        As usual, such valuable insights. Thank you very much, Don. And, beautiful watches.

                        Comment


                        • Don
                          Don commented
                          Editing a comment
                          No problem, cheers!
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