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  • New Seiko's coming soonish, Omg

    Hi All, I see Seiko has a new lineup coming out soonish!!!!
    I'm looking forward to seeing SPB151J1 the new Willard

    **NEW and UPCOMING Seiko watches** https://forums.watchuseek.com/showthread.php?t=2393034

    Hopefully this link works
    Last edited by Artemis12; 16-05-20, 22:53.

  • #2
    Thanks for the link Artemis12, couple more links here:

    https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/seiko-spb151-and-spb153-captain-willard-prospex-introducing

    https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/se...49-introducing

    (Reserving judgement till they lose the X)


    Originally posted by Artemis12 View Post
    Hi All, I see Seiko has a new lineup coming out soonish!!!!
    I'm looking for to seeing SPB143 the new Willard
    Harlan
    Timekeeper Watch Club
    New Zealand, Pacific Ocean, Earth

    Comment


    • #3
      Yes, the dear old X. Never warmed to it, major reason I’ve not yet tried the current crop of repos from Seiko. Plain ugly, pointless and makes dial more busy than it needs to be.

      Comment


      • #4
        ditto

        imvho X = superfluous fugliness


        Originally posted by kiwi.bloke View Post
        Yes, the dear old X. Never warmed to it, major reason I’ve not yet tried the current crop of repos from Seiko. Plain ugly, pointless and makes dial more busy than it needs to be.
        Harlan
        Timekeeper Watch Club
        New Zealand, Pacific Ocean, Earth

        Comment


        • #5
          As a newbie to the forum, and one who has started to drink the seiko koolaid!!! I haven't paid any attention to any of there new model watch launches before or any other launches. Something that will now change!!

          The more I read and learn from everyone on the forum, which is totally amazing! The more I'm totally reevaluating what the heck I'm doing, so have now started to look at new watches. So now seeing that I could get a new version of one of the legendary dive watches is quite exciting and with out it having to be a limited edition way beyond my funds is fantastic or a frankinwatche which would be totally disappointing by making the wrong choice in a seller. I do agree that a super clean look like the old divers would be even better, but at this stage I'm not going to complain.

          Where can I place my order????
          Last edited by Artemis12; 29-04-20, 19:38.

          Comment


          • harlansmart
            harlansmart commented
            Editing a comment
            Hmmmm,

            I know little* but:

            ... yeah dunno, the 'X' is generally pretty deeply disliked by the W.I.S..

            The best purchase is one the buyer is wholly prepared & researched to make.

            If in doubt, step back, breath deeply a fair few times and think it over well properly.

            Again, purely IMO: things (generally) made nowadays are not designed & made as good as they were 40-100 years ago.

            Why does a 250GTO or a Steve McQueen Daytona sell for a squillion x original RRP... a few reasons but one is, they were simply better things.

            Mostly it's better to 'wait for the real deal', re-issues etc usually BOOST prices of original.

            Plus, the hunt is ¾ of the fun, anyway.

            JM2CW*

        • #6
          True!!! the hunt is definitely 90 percent of the fun!!!! and nothing more exhilarating when you pull the trigger and receive that slick looking piece of steel you've been looking for, for so long too, i totally get it even for the piece I own. But there's still something quite cool and relaxing about dropping your guard to enjoy an official copy or is it just another generation and will be worth a few dollar more in 30 years time?? I'm finding that quite an interesting question at the moment the forum definitely opens up a lot of new questions and directions to head in. All part of the fun

          Comment


          • #7
            Nice hands on article with the new 62MAS variants. SEIKO QC is a worry at the new prices. Still got that X.

            https://www.ablogtowatch.com/hands-o...terpretations/
            If I think of something witty, I'll be sure to write it here.

            Comment


            • rolex
              rolex commented
              Editing a comment
              'Still got that X' - sjb

          • #8
            Great link sjb. I'm looking forward to read all the articles

            Comment


            • #9
              I guess it wouldn't be polite if I didn't ask why everyone seems to dislike the X ??

              Comment


              • #10
                Originally posted by Artemis12 View Post
                I guess it wouldn't be polite if I didn't ask why everyone seems to dislike the X ??
                What purpose does it serve? Marketing only addition and clutters the dial. It’s adds nothing to a dive watch in terms of functionality.

                That being said it probably added to the value of my pre ‘X’ Seiko watches such as the Shogun which has a pre X reference number and a post X one.

                Comment


                • Artemis12
                  Artemis12 commented
                  Editing a comment
                  Ok I see, it's a blessing and mostly curse!!!

              • #11
                Will be interested to see what they do with the marine master - if any updates at all.

                Been looking at prices of the 001s and 017s and the days of a 3,000nzd preowned example are sadly gone
                New or used the MM300 is being sold at retail or higher!

                Comment


                • #12
                  The OP has been an active watch enthusiast for a month or so, and he is wondering about the sentiment towards the Prospex “X”. I’ve been in this for nearly three decades—13 years rooting for Seiko—and I have the same question … So, I wanted to write this post to explore the view point, and not meaning to step on any toes, so apologies in advance. Guess I will throw this in, and members can come to their own conclusion.

                  First, the reason for my being perplexed is that I remember back to the early days, still in the first decade of online watch forums. I think I can mention the old Seiko Citizen Watch Forum (SCWF) here, because I—we--owe them a lot for being shoulders for people like me to stand on. Among Seiko enthusiasts, one thing we used to look forward to was receiving a Japan Domestic Market (JDM) Seiko Diver in the mail. In those days, JDM watches were truly exclusive to Japan, not like now when very few Seiko models are Japan-only. The JDM Divers usually come in a black & yellow retail box, marked with the word “PROSPEX”--it wasn’t a dirty word then, but rather a positive thing, and when we sold the watches on eventually, having the “original PROSPEX box” included was a valued asset.





                  Harlan commented above…

                  the 'X' is generally pretty deeply disliked by the W.I.S..


                  ...but hang on, this only adds to the confusion. Like, who exactly are the WIS that is being referred to? …Are Timekeeper members all WIS? Or only some, and where to draw the line? If we’re all WIS, then it means we all dislike it, and that’s not the case.

                  While I don’t have time to be active on other forums nowadays, I do visit them, read the discussions, etc. The majority of the dislikes that I observe tend to come from Seiko fans who have been collecting Seiko for 10 or more years. Few who have been in Seiko fandom for less than 5 years dislike it, most being indifferent, and if anyone has looked around lately, these under-5-years Seiko fans are actually now the majority of Seiko enthusiast. Look at those writing for online watch publications, top YouTube watch reviewers, and those heavily embedded in social media—these make up the majority of modern watch influence, and most have only started watches within the last 5 years. They are generally indifferent to the Prospex X.

                  I’m even more confused now.. Those of us who used to value the black & yellow PROSPEX box are now talking sh*t about the X? ...Another thing that I’ve found from reading around the watch communities is that those who have disdain for the Prospex X don’t seem to agree on why they dislike it.

                  Kiwi.bloke, whom I respect a lot and I think he’s had years beyond me in Japanese watches, has mentioned one of the reason often quote, i.e. that the X...

                  ...clutters the dial. It’s adds nothing to a dive watch in terms of functionality.



                  Now, this. I understand totally. I have quite a few friends who collect watches, and who swear exclusively by watches that have maximum legibility, and generally uncluttered. For this reason, their favourite types of watches are generally large classic-style divers and pilot’s watches. These friends of mine don’t like “busy” dials with too many design elements going on, and generally stay away from multi-complications, such as this Seiko 4S36 GMT Retrograde SARN001 (2007).





                  In my eyes—and many other watch lovers—the SARN001 is a beautiful creation, and I think one of best looking Seiko that I’ve owned... What I’m trying to get at is that legible uncluttered aesthetics is a personal preference, i.e. subjective, and a dial with a lot of elements incorporated is not a design flaw, but merely caters for a different audience. If this were not so, Sinn and Kobold would outsell Rolex, which is far from the case.

                  Among modern Seiko, enthusiasts’ responses to the watches have not exactly being for minimalism and legibility. In 1995, Seiko recommenced a model line that had been discontinued for 30 years, the Alpinist, and in that year, introduced the 4S15 Alpinist SCVF007. The Automatic 4S15-6000 was manufactured for only two years, replaced by a Kinetic 4th generation in a different case style. A mechanical Alpinist was eventually launched in 2006, the 6R15 Alpinist SARB01x range, of which the SARB017 was a part of.





                  For those who remember the general response, nearly unanimous on SCWF, everyone complained about the lack of the “Alpinist” script on the dial, many miss the “Diashock” (this word is actually of great historical importance to Seiko, going back to the first Grand Seiko, but a story for another day). No one I remember said the old 4S15’s dial was busy or cluttered. Today, a SCVF007 in good condition changes hands for 3 times the price of a used SARB017.

                  In 2005, Seiko’s then-new Cal. 6R15 equipped a gents watch, the Spirit SCVS003, which was made for only a few years before being absorbed in the SARB range. Its successor is the watch we know and love as the SARB033.





                  When the 6R15 Spirit SCVS003 ceased production, Seiko enthusiasts at the time lamented its passing. They preferred the dial script over the SARB033, dissing how the latter lacked the essential “DIASHOCK” script (forgotten totally now by current crop of Seiko folks), and how outrageous it was for Seiko to mix a cursive “Automatic” with printed “23 JEWELS”. The prices of used Spirit SCVS003 did go up briefly, looking as though the model might have investment potential, but alas, they were quickly forgotten. The ugly SARB033, on the other hand, went on to become the favourite Seiko mid-range gent’s watch with a huge following to its very end—everyone now saying how beautiful the watch is.

                  Here is another Seiko Automatic 200m Diver that hardly anyone knows about, yet it is one of the most highly sought-after modern Seiko Diver among Japanese collectors. On Yahoo!Japan, the 1995 Titanium Scuba SCVF001 (4S15-7000) are usually sold for twice the price of a similar condition 4S15 Alpinist. The dial script is a pure jungle, and those paying for them don’t seem to mind.





                  For some strange reason, no WIS is ever heard complaining about the amount of “junk” on the dial of Seiko’s First 1000m Diver, the Professional Diver’s 1000m S23157 “Golden Tuna” (1986). In all honesty, side by side, the dial of the 1000m S23157 Golden Tuna makes the recently-discontinued Prospex Diver’s 200m SRP775 “Turtle” look very clean.





                  For some more strange reasons, said WIS don’t seem to mind when the clutter is in the form of a long word, “MARINEMASTER”. I remember quite clearly when, about a decade ago, Seiko added the word to the dial of their entry Professional range, the SBBN007, then re-designating this otherwise exact same watch, the SBBN017. There were criticism from the watch community, but they weren’t about cluttering up the dial at all. The complaint was to do with the massive price increase that resulted, for essentially unchanged specs.





                  But some may argue that the MarineMaster was an upgrade, because… you know? ...the MarineMaster 300m (SBDX001)… So, MARINEMATER = good, X = bad.

                  Well, looking back really far now, the “MARINEMASTER” was also a marketing-only add on. The problem could be that people don’t bother looking far back. The original Seiko Professional that started the bloodline in 1967 was the 300m 6215-7000. Note all the dial scripts.





                  This Professional 300m was succeeded by the 1968 6159-7000, appearing here for the last time in the 1971 Seiko Catalog (JDM). Again, note the dial scripts.





                  A lot of misguided sources will tell us that the MarineMaster SBDX001 came next, but that’s not how it actually started. In 2000, Seiko released the Historical Collection Year 2000, a small batch of limited edition watches that were re-edition of historical models. One of which was the SBDX003, which was quite a faithful re-issue.





                  It was only after this LE was met with success that the MarineMaster SBDX001 was let loose in the Japan market. This is an image capture from a 2001 Seiko Catalog (JDM), where what is now known as the “MM300” first appeared.





                  However, it was not the first use of the sub-brand name MarineMaster. The name had already been on Seiko JDM catalogs since 1998, first on a quartz chronograph (7T Series), then on dive computers like these from the same 2001 JDM catalog as the new MM300.





                  Seiko enthusiasts in the West did not have any opinion on this unacceptable sharing of the MarineMaster name, mainly because such enthusiasts were yet to be invented. The Internet was still in its infancy, online forums were still being formed, and even when they did, very little was known of JDM watches at the time. It would have indeed been entertaining to see die-hard Seiko fans blowing their fuses that Seiko dared to share the MarineMaster name between the spiritual successor of the Professional 6215/6159 and a cheaper digital dive watch.

                  How dare they do that?!

                  The MARINEMASTER that folks don’t seem to mind wasn’t passed down from watch heaven, but was already in use among lower-priced Seiko. Many aren’t aware of this, possibly because they don’t read back far enough.

                  One other thing that I have noted is that, when the Prospex X logo first appeared on a Diver’s 200m 4R36, the different variants of the Turtle (2016), there was not a lot of dislike for the X. Most people seemed very happy that Seiko finally re-editions their favourite vintage diver. When the X appeared on the mid-range 6R15 SBDC “Sumo”, the disdain for the logo started to be prominent. Again, primarily among those who have been into Seiko for 10+ years.

                  When the Prospex X found its way onto the SBDX023 “MM300”, that was when the loathing compounded, and yet again, from the older gangs. Some likely saw that their beloved MM300 had been “swallowed” by the cheap “X”. This is despite the fact that the SBDX has from its earliest release in 2001 been a PROSPEX watch. Zooming into the image from the 2001 catalog reveals the original box that the MM300 came in…





                  The SBDX MM300 has always been a PROSPEX.

                  An interesting mental exercise… Let’s imagine that we could turn back time to 2016. Picture Seiko’s Mechanical Divers that existed then. Now, instead of the 4R36 Divers gaining the X, imagine that they all—entry level 4R36 and mid-range 6R15 JDM—gained MARINEMASTER on their dials… After all, the very first Seiko to wear “MARINEMASTER” had a WR of only 10 BAR.

                  How would you feel?

                  Would that be what you would prefer to have happened?


                  ...Or would you object because… it cheapens the MARINEMASTER?

                  As a watch enthusiast, is a logo on the dial enough for you to just simply declare, “This watch is a P.O.S. because it’s got the ugly X...I’m unable to see anything good about it.”?



                  A lot of things have changed in the last 13 years that I have loved Seiko. A decade ago, most men were interested in cars and/or motorbikes, some men were interested in watches. In 2020, most men are still interested in cars/bikes, and most men are now interested in watches. A decade ago, only some watch collectors own Seiko. Today, most—nearly all—collectors own at least one Seiko.

                  A decade ago, being a Seiko enthusiast was a niche among watch enthusiasts, but now, it is a norm. A decade ago, some of us championed for Seiko when the mainstream watch guy looked down at the brand. Now, we don’t need to—all the Hodinkee-type internet band-wagon are already doing it their way just fine. We, the more seasoned generation of Seiko enthusiasts, are no longer the main market for Seiko Mechanical.

                  Seiko used to be our “boy”, but he has grown up now, and not just our boy anymore. Perhaps, it is time to accept them for what they are—Prospex X and all—instead of trying to hate them into becoming what we want.

                  The X could just be a phase, sure, like the SUS “S” of the 1990s.





                  But on the off-chance that the X is not a phase, but rather who they really are—we best accept them for what they are.

                  Don’t like, don’t buy, don’t complain.
                  Last edited by Don; 03-05-20, 21:19.
                  On the instruments we entrust to pace our lives, to bear witness to our days, and to be the keepers of the most precious thing we have... time.

                  Comment


                  • #13
                    Great post Don with fantastic detail!! I will need to read it about 50 times to take it all I can see why it dosen't bother me as I've just started my journey and don't see it as a deal breaker. We all love different things
                    Last edited by Artemis12; 03-05-20, 11:12.

                    Comment


                    • #14
                      Thanks for that Artemis12, I was about to say pretty much the same

                      Cheers again Don for another useful & in depth post, generous of you to share your knowledge & time so freely


                      Originally posted by Artemis12 View Post
                      Great post Don with fantastic detail!! I will need to read it about 50 times to take it all
                      Harlan
                      Timekeeper Watch Club
                      New Zealand, Pacific Ocean, Earth

                      Comment


                      • Artemis12
                        Artemis12 commented
                        Editing a comment
                        Nicely said Harlan!!! I'm looking forward to googling a few of the models Don has discussed

                    • #15
                      Thanks for the in depth discussion Don. It’s an interesting one as I have found myself wondering about the X and I think this is to do with style.

                      I like a clean dial and legibility, but wording on the dial doesn’t necessarily mean it isn’t legible and there are dials without wording that are simply not legible imho. Navi timer dials are incredibly busy but designed to be legible. Similarly my JSAR dial is busy but very legible also.

                      Having enjoyed years of Citizen’s promaster mark I have found it subtle and unobtrusive, with many Citizen aficionados considering it a desired advantage over the non-marked versions. The BM6400 being one such example where one market had the mark and the other didn’t, resale prices of the marked version went for a considerably higher sum.

                      Seiko has over many years introduced us to numerous sub brands and names that are designed I assume to achieve the same outcome as the many badges we find on the back of vehicles.

                      Similar to the X I find the word presage on the Seiko dials to be unnecessary and I didn’t particularly like the scripted font on some of their models either. Endless debate about the cleaner cocktail times or the new ones?

                      In the end, i don’t dislike the X, but I don’t like it either and if I had the choice, my PADI diver wouldn’t have an X

                      Comment


                      • Artemis12
                        Artemis12 commented
                        Editing a comment
                        Thanks Brucy, this is more food for thought!!! This is getting to be quite an interesting progression from my excitment of a new reissue of the 6105. Brilliant stuff
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