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  • #16
    Originally posted by Brucy View Post
    Thanks for the in depth discussion Don. It’s an interesting one...
    My pleasure, Brucy ...Thank you for responding.

    Oh, and thank you for mentioning your SRPA21 PADI, as I missed out on commenting on your wrist shot the other day. Actually, I’ve personally never been super-keen on Pepsi colourway. Yes, I’ve owned a few notable vintage Pepsi Seiko—the Chronograph 6139-6002 Blue Pogue, 150m Diver 6309-729A, and Quartz Chronograph 7A28-703A—but not that huge a fan. However, when I saw your photo…

    Just Wow! ...I’ve never seen the PADI Turtle look so good. Give me one! ...and I was off to see whether I could find a unit somewhere. Your pic was that good. (Lucky for my wallet that the frontal cortex kicked in first… )

    Originally posted by Brucy View Post
    Having enjoyed years of Citizen’s promaster mark I have found it subtle and unobtrusive, with many Citizen aficionados considering it a desired advantage over the non-marked versions...
    Yes, I’m with you on that, and will gladly tag along with those aficionados. When I first learned of the negative sentiment towards the Prospex logo, my very first thought actually was that Citizen has had their Promaster logo on the dial for decades, and I’ve never heard anyone complain. I’ve given this some thought, and I think we Citizen fans like the Promaster arrow but don’t warm to the Prospex X because…

    1) We are used to seeing the Promaster logo. The X has only appeared on Prospex watches in the last 4 years, but the Promaster arrow has been with us for 31 years, first appearing in 1989 on the Citizen Aqualand and a few other sports watches. I can guarantee you won’t like the earlier version of the Promaster logo In the 1991 Citizen Catalog (JDM), it looked like this…

    ...and it goes on the dial like this. Yes, all of it goes on the dial, including the “Embracing Nature” bit…

    I can’t tell you what watch enthusiasts thought of the logo at the time, because, while I was already interested in watching by the early-90s, my head was so far up the Swiss backside that I could smell cheese If anyone was already in the Japanese watch collecting scene 30 years ago, please share your story. Over the decade to follow, Citizen cleaned up the Promaster logo, and eventually ended up with the Goldilocks proportions we’ve come to like.

    2) The Promaster logo already resemble something relevant to watch enthusiasts, namely the British Ministry of Defense’s broad arrow.

    Citizen simply had to relocate the Promaster logo to where it already works well for the MOD’s broad arrow, and over time, resize it for aesthetic balance.

    3) This will be a controversial one… I’m willing to bet that nearly every watch enthusiast would agree to this statement: Most Seiko are aesthetically more appealing than most Citizen.

    Note the word “most”, so yes, there will be the odd Citizen that is more handsomely designed than some Seiko. But they tend to be the exception. Think attractive, but socially-awkward, females—you want them, even though they’re weird.

    Within the same watch market segment, i.e. luxury status being the same, men are initially drawn to a watch primarily from its aesthetic quality. Objective tangible qualities such as specifications and build quality, intangible qualities like lineage and relevance, and cost are usually secondary to looks. Post-purchase, we’ll usually justify to ourselves that we bought it for the secondary reasons, but that’s understandable and forgivable. What differs for each of us is the extent to which we place weight on the aesthetic, i.e. whether or not a perceived aesthetic flaw can be a deal-breaker.

    Those for whom looks plays a stronger influence would gravitate to Seiko, and those for whom looks plays less of influence might lean towards Citizen.

    I’m not sure about the actual market share between Seiko and Citizen, i.e. to all consumers. However, from observation, there seems to currently be 5-6 Seiko enthusiasts for every 1 Citizen enthusiast. You can see this from the proportion of topics of discussions between these two brands that occur on watch forums, YouTube, and social media.

    Originally posted by Brucy View Post
    I like a clean dial and legibility, but wording on the dial doesn’t necessarily mean it isn’t legible and there are dials without wording that are simply not legible imho. Navi timer dials are incredibly busy but designed to be legible. Similarly my JSAR dial is busy but very legible also...
    Similar to the X I find the word presage on the Seiko dials to be unnecessary and I didn’t particularly like the scripted font on some of their models either. Endless debate about the cleaner cocktail times or the new ones?
    Thanks for making me consider about the legibility vs amount of word script, Brucy—never thought about that before

    On matter of debate, I personally think that it is healthy for a community to occasionally discuss things that members may hold differing views, as long as it’s done in a civil manner. Avoiding serious issues unfortunately leads to avoiding anything of importance. However, I also think that only objective quantifiable matters deserves arguments. Subjective matters—what flavour of ice-cream you prefer, whether you take milk with your coffee—shouldn’t be subjects of debate, as they are individual preferences. For watches, debatable objective issues might be whether a Seiko 4R36 or a Citizen 8203 is a better movement, or whether sapphire crystal or Hardlex is better on a dive watch.

    Subjective arguments in watches are things like what colour dial you prefer, whether flat or domed profile crystal look better, or whether a particular watch goes better with black or brown straps. These are going to be endless for sure.

    I am quite certain that I am in agreement with kiwi.bloke and Brucy regarding what would be considered legible and uncluttered. We are absolutely on the same page, and my previous post was not to argue that the Prospex dial is more legible. My point, rather, was that one’s liking for minimalist and/or legible design is subjective to each individual's preference. A clear uncluttered dial might be good (or even essential) for WIS A, but it does not mean it has to be crucial for WIS B.

    Here is a historical milestone watch for Seiko, debut at Baselworld 2016. The Credor Fugaku Tourbillon LE is Seiko’s first tourbillon moment. It has zero legibility, and full marks for clutter…

    ...yet, for some people, a beautiful piece of horology and craftsmanship that they desire to own. Its lack of legibility, busy and cluttered dial elements are not flaws, but intended to appeal to certain people. Not every watch need to be minimalist, and not every watch buyer want it so. This Credor is, however, not for me, but there are heaps of other watch-related things that aren’t for me, among them, the Pepsi colourway.

    I am also not attracted to…
    • Gold case watches, whether the gold is solid, rolled, capped, or plated
    • Divers with orange, green, or red dials
    • World-Time watches with rotating “cities” chapter ring or bezel
    However, I realize these are subjective personal preferences, and I will never say, “That watch is crap because it has a gold-tone case”, “Don’t buy that diver until they stop making it in Hulk-green”, or “World-Time watches are butt-ugly”. I won’t because my personal preference has nothing to do with whether a watch is good or suitable for someone else.

    To use your reference to "the badges on the back of vehicles", imagine if an automotive journalist or writer rates a car poorly, based solely on his/her feelings towards the GTi, VTi, or Turbo badges on the boot, or how the make's badge appears on the front grill, and not the car itself. That journalist or writer would be a laughing stock. Yet, it is okay for WIS to dismiss a watch, unable to see any good in it, based purely on a logo on the dial?

    Originally posted by Brucy View Post
    ... I have found myself wondering about the X and I think this is to do with style.
    What has pushed me to write these long posts is because I have seen, from certain groups of Seiko enthusiasts, loathing disdain that boarder on hatred. Many abusive and summary dismissal—in particular after the SBDX023 "MM300" was released—that indicates it is not just “to do with style”. Everyone has likes and dislikes, and we rarely see this kind animosity towards a styling element.

    Originally posted by Brucy View Post
    In the end, i don’t dislike the X, but I don’t like it either and if I had the choice, my PADI diver wouldn’t have an X
    Me neither, Brucy. I am indifferent about the Prospex X on the dial, and don’t mind either way. I understand Seiko’s inclusion of the Prospex X, and because I like this Manufacture, I hope they continue to do well in sales. Though, I don’t need to hope because it seems like they’re hardly keeping up with the demand globally, judging from both eBay, and the local market here in Thailand, one of Seiko’s main manufacturing hub.

    Regarding the X, if it really were about the styling, then maybe the watch communities should discuss, not whether Prospex Divers should wear the X, but rather how.

    Perhaps in the future, Seiko will follow the path that Citizen Promaster did in the 90s. They might also take cues from their vintage divers and see how those Seiko of old wear their Daini and Suwa symbols. Here's a suggestion from me.


    Last edited by Don; 06-05-20, 10:12.
    On the instruments we entrust to pace our lives, to bear witness to our days, and to be the keepers of the most precious thing we have... time.


    • Tempus
      Tempus commented
      Editing a comment
      Great suggestion, I like that last one. Royalties to Don.

    • Artemis12
      Artemis12 commented
      Editing a comment
      Wow, another great post Don!! Thank you for time and effort. I look forward to reading this one a few more times too

    • harlansmart
      harlansmart commented
      Editing a comment
      2nd Don Modded Dial is 10 'x' better

      You should apply for a job with them frankly, you're doing much better already.

  • #17
    Have read Don's (and others) posts now quite a few times, he raises many excellent well researched & illustrated points, he's certainly done a good job at trying to sway/confuse the non-X'rs

    I'm impressed that he's made me write & delete 3 posts in this thread, as I am a tiny bit unsure, and I realise more & more that I don't want to piss off the pro-X'rs

    Will shut up, seems it's too contentious for me, and seems it's a very personal thing, this blasted

    Click image for larger version  Name:	Messages Image(4162345911).png Views:	0 Size:	937.0 KB ID:	58193

    (Except it's too jagged & always seems to be too much, not needed, and bizarrely out of place).
    Timekeeper Watch Club
    New Zealand, Pacific Ocean, Earth


    • #18
      Great thoughts, Don. I do find it strange that people should be concerned about one character (x) on a dial, while the rest of the world goes crazy over the latest version of whatever contains "Superlative Chronometer Officially Certified" on its dial, despite that being only part of the dial clutter on its models . It's a strange world, collecting and enjoying watches.


      • Don
        Don commented
        Editing a comment
        Thank you, muttley... Haha, I don't think we can do much about the "Superlative Chronometer Officially Certified"—it was already there even before I was born :D ...Have to give it to Hans Wilsdorf, though. Even though branding and brand management are considered to have been developed in during the 1950s, Rolex had been proficient in it since the mid-1940s. Wilsdorf, more or less, milked the cow, before cows were invented.

    • #19
      Hear you muttely but ROLEX dials already have had pretty much no dial left, and have been this way for a long time, but till more recently you could still get a few SEIKO's that had some 'open plain' left on their dials.

      I just do not like the shape of the X, it's more like something you would see on the Chest Medallion of a childs Space Action Charactor in my view, the shading/3-D'ness (whatever you call it) the sharpness, doesn't suit the dials imvho

      Maybe, if it were just simply an x to designate the piece a Professional Spec's watch that (might work), but I think most of the ProSpex line is not actually 'professional level'.

      i.e. a 'professional level' water watch would have to only start with models carrying the 'ISO 300m Gas Divers' rating and up, surely ?

      Fear is, FFS, what might they do next

      Originally posted by muttley View Post
      Great thoughts, Don. I do find it strange that people should be concerned about one character (x) on a dial, while the rest of the world goes crazy over the latest version of whatever contains "Superlative Chronometer Officially Certified" on its dial, despite that being only part of the dial clutter on its models . It's a strange world, collecting and enjoying watches.
      Timekeeper Watch Club
      New Zealand, Pacific Ocean, Earth


      • #20
        Most of my watches do have professional specification/certification i.e. 'ProSpex' certifications (i.e. they are ISO He-Gas Divers Rated) but I do not want/need to see that, and be reminded of that, when I want to see how long the eggs have to go, glancing at my dial..

        Divers watches, often have quite small dials anyway, due the small holes they want to cut in the top of the case, the thickness required of the glass & distance into the watch the actual dial is recessed, the need for rotating rings... all these types of design elements shrink the apparent dial size/display, so the LAST thing imo anyone wants is jolly scribble all over the place.

        Every piece of scribble, reduces legibility for the one single gain of 'wank-factor', look how the simple 14060 non COSC Rolex is a million times more attractive that the 16610 COSC Rolex.

        In my limited understanding & experience, 'professional level' Asian watch owners likely don't want extraneous rubbish scribble.

        In my limited understanding & experience, nearly all Swiss watch owners likely want as much scribble as possible.

        Timekeeper Watch Club
        New Zealand, Pacific Ocean, Earth


        • #21
          Some interesting opinions on the "X"
          As Don said the Prospex range has being around longer than The "X" on the dial .
          I can still remember when I got my first sumo and it arrived in a prospex box and no "X" on the dial .
          When I see 2 Sumos side by side (the old and the new "X") I think why did they even bother mucking with a perfectly good designed sumo dial.
          I personally don't like the "X" but can live with it,

          An old saying comes to mind, "We are a product of our generation"
          In other words we like what we are used to and reluctant to accept change.
          The old school are going "why the X"
          But the new crop don't care as it's still a Sumo "X" or "no X"

          I followed Seiko, Citizen during the Depth rating wars when they were going Hammer and Tong to outdo each other in how deep their watches could go .
          Their watches were big , chunky and solid with big clean faces,
          That is my era and I try to stick with that style.
          The cleaner the better
          but that is me and only my opinion which I impose on nobody as everyone has their own taste,
          However the new divers with that big lazy "S" drive me bonkers ​​​​​​​

          Rest easy Matty , My best Mate and Son


          • #22
            Click image for larger version  Name:	20200510_092647.jpg Views:	0 Size:	40.1 KB ID:	58219 Hi Guy's, "Lol" I've loved the whole X debates!!!

            But did anyone have any thoughts on the actual watches???

            X or no X it doesn't make any difference to me personally I just enjoy the whole package, dial, case and even the strap.

            I've add a few photos of my citizen altichron.
            It has a THIRTY!!! minute video on YouTube on how to set it up and how to read the dial "crazy" but the machining on the titanium case is just amazing and the strap is just fantastically comfortable.

            Click image for larger version  Name:	20200510_092603.jpg Views:	0 Size:	63.3 KB ID:	58218

            Click image for larger version  Name:	20200510_092442.jpg Views:	0 Size:	68.4 KB ID:	58220
            its definitely one of my favorites.

            Sorry about the photos I've managed to insert them all over the place. "Help Harlan "