Omega Seamaster Automatic Vintage Watch (WR0608)

[Don]

Item Name: Omega Seamaster Automatic Vintage Watch (WR0608)

Item Number: 1549577199
Seller ID: steviemiller
Feedback: 1 (100%)
Link: https://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=1549577199









Seller Description:
“Picked this up form Trademe a year ago, and never worn it ... turned out I dont really like wearing fancy watches as much as I expected. Previous owner was apparently a collector and did not wear it much either. My loss your gain...

A classic that looks as good today as it did when it was new. Understated elegance at it's best.

A true collectors watch for the gentleman with refined taste.

Works perfectly, and as you can see from pictures taken in full on sunshine, is cosmetically 9 out of 10. I doubt you will find this watch from 60's in a better condition anytime, anywhere.

Same watch you can see here (sold for 795 GBP - 1515 NZD - without shipping or import duty/GST) : http://www.wimbledonwatches.co.uk/p/...-watch/gents-v
intage-omega-seamaster-automatic-stainless-steel-watch-wr0608

Comes with original box and original bracelet

The watch has an automatic Omega movement and is keeping accurate time, as you would expect from a world renowned brand such as Omega and the hands glide around the dial.

The watch is signed Omega Automatic below the 12 o’clock with the Omega logo. With Seamaster above and Swiss made below the 6 o’clock. The original bracelet has the Omega symbol on the bracelet clasp.

Pickup from Riccarton. FREE Shipping at buyers risk. Note that I expect payment within 3 days.

Happy bidding!”

Notes:

I came across this particular listing on TradeMe when it was first listed, and have kept it on my Watch List as there are a number of things that bothers me about this auction. Should I just let it go, seeing that the seller is a TM newbie (though not a very convincing one at that )? I initially though that there is little danger in this listing gaining interest, but thanks to TM now letting us know the number of Watchers, plus a Q has popped up, I think it is worthwhile to do an authentication thread. Instead of doing an authentication as I normally would, I’d like your help on this, and perhaps we can all learn together.

"You", in this case, would be any forum members who are interested in vintage watches, not just Omega, and methods in authenticating such pieces. “You” would also be someone who is not afraid to make some rather public mistakes all in the interest of learning. Experience is not a prerequisite, but an open mind is… Too much experience, like the type Harlan has , may want to sit out on this one for a while to give others a go at authenticating first. Towards the end, I'd still love to read your comments on the watch.

I will try to respond to each of your replies/suggestions individually as they are posted. If there is a lot of interest in this, I will consider doing others in the future, so please keep them coming. To start off, I’d like to know what sort of things would one be considering in the process of authenticating this watch. What sort of information would one require? What would one require from the seller before making a decision? Would getting an authentication from a watchmaker help in this instance? ...as well as other aspects that you might like to add, including things that you would do if you were the one having to sell this specimen.

Okay, your thoughts, please.

[Stevo_iwc]

Great idea Don. I’ll have a go as a non vintage expert with a couple of thoughts.
Firstly this would be a watch that immediately put one “on guard” as omegas from the 50s and 60s are one of the most regularly frankened watches.
Secondly it doesn’t look right to me. It looks like the bezel is missing? And the body edge has been rounded to hide this?

[harlansmart]

Thanks Don, appreciate the opportunity to learn, that you are giving us with this thread.

Had seen this again too... was wondering whether to say anything, mostly since our member Suavio has a 'WTB Omega Seamaster 600 / 'vintage' advert running at present - can see thru some of your comment, to just what you are probably really looking for & what you are really saying, this will be great!

It will be interesting to see, if anyone gives a flying hoot... and to find out out if people currently care about genuineness, legitimacy and such things... certainly get the feeling less & less do we care about authenticity in general.

1 feedback, for buying, mid last year, not responded to (i.e. no feedback left for seller)... pretty blindingly good listing for a 1st ever TM Listing....

Know what one ought be asking, and know what required shots & info are excluded.

Unsure what relevance 'WR0608' has to steviemillers listing



============================================

FWIW:

wimbledonwatches listing referred to by steviemiller:

http://www.wimbledonwatches.co.uk/p/72/14/omega-watch/gents-v

Gents Vintage Omega Seamaster Automatic Stainless Steel Watch (WR0608)

£795.00

SOLD

Description: A great example of a gentleman’s Omega watch. This is a vintage Automatic in brushed stainless steel. A classic that looks as good today as it did when it was new.

Follow this link for Omega watches we have listed for sale http://www.wimbledonwatches.co.uk/4/watches/omega

Dial Condition: A silver dial with silver raised batons, date aperture to 3 o’clock, with silver hands. The dial and glass are in perfect condition.

Case Measures 9 to 3 o’clock position: 35mm

Case Measures 12 to 6 o’clock position: 35mm

Case Condition: In excellent condition (the close up photo is highly magnified) with no visible signs or wear, scuffs, scratches or dents. The case is brushed stainless steel with original crown and signed with the Omega Seamaster Hippocamp on the back.

Movement & Time Keeping: The watch has an automatic Omega movement and is keeping accurate time, as you would expect from a world renowned brand such as Omega and the hands glide around the dial.

Signed: The watch is signed Omega Automatic below the 12 o’clock with the Omega logo. With Seamaster above and Swiss made below the 6 o’clock. The original bracelet has the Omega symbol on the bracelet clasp.

Bracelet Size and Condition: The bracelet is in good condition; there are no scuffs, scratches or dents with a fully working Omega clasp.

[Tempus]

These Omega watches usually have very nice moments. A closeup of the movement and perhaps the cal. info would be good.

[ibrar]

Thanks Don. I am like infant for this , will participate as there can not be a better learning than this.
When I came across this listing reading first paragraph told me no, no. The way this is presented, ‘ making it look coming from collector ‘. All his description does not clearly describes the watch but is focussed on making one think this is not the piece I should miss.
Dial seems repainted. Seamaster bit different from many on line samples and no Swiss made at 6 O clock , hour marker seem funny as well can’t describe. Though I am keen to acquire vintage omega reaching here put me off even asking for authentication from forum
Rest is too technical for me.
Cheers all



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[captainscarlet1]

Interesting idea Don, Before I even contemplated bidding on this watch, the first thing I would want to see would be the reference numbers inside the case back. Then go from there..........

[Don]

Great start, gents!

Thanks first of all to Harlan for acknowledging the new thread, while at the same time tactfully holding back on the views he obviously has on the watch in question—as I have requested him to. I look forward to what he has to say on it towards the end… so for those reading this and want in on the action, we’ve barely just started, so do join in.

...It will be interesting to see, if anyone gives a flying hoot... and to find out out if people currently care about genuineness, legitimacy and such things... certainly get the feeling less & less do we care about authenticity in general....

I know exactly how you feel, Harlan, but we don’t have a choice. When it comes to the authenticity of vintage watches, jewelers, GemLab (I really want to add the "rolling eyes" here, but that's off topic), and most watchmakers are useless. We are pretty much the last line of defense, and by “we”, I mean all TKNZ members, discerning watch collectors and watch enthusiasts. Some may think that, since they are not regularly buying and selling vintages, what people in the local market do doesn’t affect them. The truth is that it does—let me paint the picture.

Most members here, along with non-members who frequent these pages, own vintages. While some may have been a “find”, most would have come into your possession in exchange for hard-earn cash. Being watch enthusiasts, most of these watches are likely authentic, or at least genuine in the areas that matter. A large portion of these items’ value are tied to their authenticity—their originality is the reason why they are worth more than other examples on the market.

However, value can change, and if the general public loses a respect and appreciation for authenticity, soon those values will drop. Even if you don’t plan on ever selling your vintage watches, the watches you hand down to your children and grandchildren will be worth less if the market no longer values authenticity. The net worth of your watch collection will tumble, and looking at it this way, winning the fight against inauthentics, fakes, and Frankens is in your vested interest.

It is not only a fight for you, but for those who aren’t yet able to fight but whom you hope will one day carry your passion for watches, so that passion may outlive you.

Back to this “Omega”… Just to keep things orderly from this point onward, I will bold in red portions of my response to each of you for which I would like you to further think about and possibly reply.

...Firstly this would be a watch that immediately put one “on guard” as omegas from the 50s and 60s are one of the most regularly frankened watches.
Secondly it doesn’t look right to me. It looks like the bezel is missing? And the body edge has been rounded to hide this?

Very good observation, Steve.

"On guard” is definitely where we should be, and you are absolutely correct—vintage Omega from 1950s and 1960s are without doubt the most Frankened watches on the market today (for those new to vintages, a Franken-watch is one assembled or cobbled up together from often genuine parts of more than one watch of the same make… Frankens are NOT authentic and have near-zero collectors’ value… vintage watches and classic cars are different). The reason for this can be contributed to 1) during the 50s-60s, Omega, along with Rolex, were the largest mass-produced luxury watches in Switzerland, 2) Omega watches in different price tiers shared some common components as well as a common family of movement that share a common base caliber, making easier for later counterfeiters to switch parts to create more desirable models, and 3) Omega brand position has enduringly stayed within the luxury range, despite its current lower status to Rolex… These three factors combined makes the perfect recipe for Franken-watch makers.

Something not “looking right” is a good start. It means your instinct, gained through experience, has told you to be cautious. However, if someone were to ask me to authenticate this watch, I need to be able to tell them more than “my gut feeling is telling me”. That person will want objective evidence. So, Steve, if you wanted to prove that some part is missing, or that another part was altered, how might you do that?

These Omega watches usually have very nice moments. A closeup of the movement and perhaps the cal. info would be good.

Here’s someone who knows their Omega ...Tempus, yes indeed, Omega wrist watch movements from the mid-20^th Century, and even the older bumper automatic are nice to look at. Though please elaborate for some of the newer members? ...do you mean that you would like to see a closeup of the movement inside this watch and know the caliber? Or are you saying that if you were selling this watch, you’d show off the movement as part of the photos—shouldn’t be hard as it’s a screw-in case back?

[Don]

Thanks Don. I am like infant for this , will participate as there can not be a better learning than this.
When I came across this listing reading first paragraph told me no, no. The way this is presented, ‘ making it look coming from collector ‘. All his description does not clearly describes the watch but is focussed on making one think this is not the piece I should miss.
...

If you are an infant, ibrar, then I must say you are a very promising infant! There are four elements that one should consider when contemplating a vintage watch on sale. Three of those require varying degrees of knowledge and experience about watches, but the last one does not. While I will keep this as a topic for another day, I can say that this forth element is Assessing the Seller.

While one can be an infant to vintage watches, one is less an infant to human nature—fully displayed in all its glory, good and bad, in full colour on the pages of TradeMe. Many punters overlook the importance of who they are buying from, caring only about the goods that are on offer. If you think about it, a seller’s honest and trustworthiness underscores everything about the offer—their proven integrity is the only guarantee that 1) the condition is close to that being described, 2) the watch is functioning as claimed, 3) services or repair were actually carried out as claimed, 4) photos are not stolen from elsewhere, and 5) they are in legal possession of the item being offered. The same applies to asking questions—if the seller is dishonest, them answering questions does not make them more honest.

People who think that there is legal recourse to rescue them from poor judgement of sellers eventually find out to the contrary. My take on this is, unless you can reasonably measure the trustworthiness and honesty of the seller through trade history and past feedback, ignore what you are told, and instead relying only on what you are shown. I am not saying that most of what this seller has written in the item description is false, but I am implying that a lot of it is subjective personal opinion. When a watch is sitting in your box, its market value is determined by the market. This market does not care about anyone's personal opinion, and neither should you.

....
Dial seems repainted.

Good! We’re getting somewhere here.
...
Tell me why you think the dial is repainted. What did you look for to come to that conclusion?

...Seamaster bit different from many on line samples and no Swiss made at 6 O clock , hour marker seem funny as well can’t describe.

You are walking on water a bit here, so need to step back a few paces

Before comparing any specimen to “on-line samples”, there are two things that one need to be aware of, and this applies to many things in logic. For you compare a possible or suspected non-standard specimen to a standard model, you must first be able to determine 1) which standard model is the specimen a deviation of, and 2) that that standard model is actually the standard model and not another type of deviation. Applying this to vintage watches, before you can compare a suspected specimen to its original, you must know 1) what original are you looking for, and 2) is the watch you are comparing it to actually an authentic original.

As for the “Swiss” on the dial, this can be a bit tricky for two reasons. First, these watches have domed acrylic crystal that cause a fair amount of distortion near the edges, thus making it hard to see the Swiss (or in Japanese watches, the dial code), even though they may be there. Second, the edges of the dial are prime spots for fading due to moisture damage, as moisture can condense and collect along one of the edges, causing damage to parts of the dial, which can include the Swiss designation. Moisture-damaged original dial does not make a watch less authentic, but “Swiss Made” written in later to fix the damage would definitely mean less authentic.

[Don]

Interesting idea Don, Before I even contemplated bidding on this watch, the first thing I would want to see would be the reference numbers inside the case back. Then go from there..........

Brilliant move, Alex, and first mention of Reference number ...Because a number of less experienced members might be reading this, would you like to share with us why this might be important to know? Also, go from there... for you, what's next?

[captainscarlet1]

I don't know about brilliant Don, but I'll take any compliment coming from you

Well , this is where the internet as a tool comes in (not available to me when I started) With a "Omega" reference number you are able with experience to narrow down what an original watch of this type should look like. This is not as easy as it would seem as Omega weren't the most diligent at maintaining this black and white utopian ideal. Dial and hand configurations can be numerous with the Seamaster line. Not to mention the fact that there are a huge amount of vintage Omega watches on the market nowadays that have been through the "chop shop" as Steve has already pointed out. Trusted sources of information are key. Couple the reference number with the movement serial number ( approximate date of manufacture) and you can begin to build a road map......Where all roads should lead to a central point and clear of minefields. If I have negotiated the minefield successfully and arrived at my expected destination, without any nagging doubts, I take my fingers out of my ears and start looking at any ancillaries, boxes, papers, valuations lol, bracelets, straps, condition etc etc. I must point out that the ancillaries only come into play if the price being asked is higher than would be expected. Then I get to the seller!!!!.................... and usually fall asleep and inevitably miss the damned end of the auction

[Tempus]

As you are pointing out Don, there are two questions that that a potential purchaser could be asking.

Firstly, given the nicely arranged photos that were provided in the listing, why is there not some of the movement and inside the case back. The prospective buyer can then verify, as far as is possible from the supplied info that the movement is indeed correct for the model number on the case back. In itself this is not sufficient given the case back could also be wrong but it’s a start.

Secondly, the movement itself may have been subject to some work in the past that has kept it going but greatly diminished its value. Swapping parts from another caliber, inconsistencies in the standard of finish on the movement parts are all red flags. Not being able to see the movement in the listing is a critical issue, especially as the case back comes off so easily.

For a first time Omega buyer, perhaps they would not know that “ the hands glide around the dial”. But assuming they are even casually familiar with how a watch shows us the passage of time, there was some opportunity to conduct research from other TM listings. A listing for a well worn Seamaster De Ville provides some comparison for the Seamaster script for example.

[Don]

I don't know about brilliant Don, but I'll take any compliment coming from you

Well , this is where the internet as a tool comes in (not available to me when I started) With a "Omega" reference number you are able with experience to narrow down what an original watch of this type should look like. This is not as easy as it would seem as Omega weren't the most diligent at maintaining this black and white utopian ideal. Dial and hand configurations can be numerous with the Seamaster line. Not to mention the fact that there are a huge amount of vintage Omega watches on the market nowadays that have been through the "chop shop" as Steve has already pointed out. Trusted sources of information are key. Couple the reference number with the movement serial number ( approximate date of manufacture) and you can begin to build a road map......Where all roads should lead to a central point and clear of minefields. If I have negotiated the minefield successfully and arrived at my expected destination, without any nagging doubts, I take my fingers out of my ears and start looking at any ancillaries, boxes, papers, valuations lol, bracelets, straps, condition etc etc.

No, I absolutely mean it ...Brilliant, not in the sense that it is anything new to do, but brilliant because of the mindset. Many punters often look for the easy short-cuts in spotting fakes, something along the line of counting teeth on a Lacoste polo shirt. They see an object and try to reverse engineer it in their minds, all the while comparing to what they think might be an original—which coincidentally are aspects of the fake that their makers aggressively work to improve to better fool these people. Your approach is to first find out the Reference number, and initially "forget" about the object in question—including any of the supporting evidence (what you call ancillaries) that common folks tend to place too much emphasis on (because they lack the skills to authenticate the watch itself).

You are, in essence, concentrating on “knowing what to expect”. If chance favours the prepared mind, then in watch buying, that prepared mind is knowing what to expect. A novice looking at a watch listing like this would first look at the title, see the photos or read the description, then they might Google for information, which for them equates to “doing homework”. As one becomes more experienced, one takes a different approach—an experienced authenticator would only start considering a particular specimen only if and only when they know what to expect.

Knowing what to expect is made up of two components, both of which are equally important in making an informed purchase. The first—everybody knows—is to know the watch model, i.e. know the history of the model, the variants, Reference, period of production, possible types of movements, case, dial, bracelet, and market value. The second—and this is the killer move—is understanding authenticity issues related to the particular brand and model... i.e. not just authenticity issues in general, but authenticity issue relating to that particular watch.

The first reply post in this thread, from our Moderator Stevo_iwc and later supported by Alex, illustrates their awareness of one of the authenticity issues of 1950s-1960s vintage Omega. My reply post to Steve addressed this, and the post directly above this one from Tempus also shows his awareness of an authenticity issue that is found in these vintage Omega, but not found in all vintage watches. These authenticity issues are different across different brands—vintage Rolex, Omega, Breitling chronographs, Girard Perregaux, Eterna, and Seiko, each have their own set of authenticity issues that is not applicable to other makes.

Many of you will, at this point, see another impostor right here on this page, and this impostor needs to be called out! ...Does everyone see how Wimbledon Watches, while calling itself a “Fine Watch Specialist”, is lacking in the most basic knowledge and understanding about a watch it sell? To the uninformed, yeah, all the info and photos are on that For Sale page! ...To you and I, what the heck is this watch? ..Does a Fine Watch Specialist not know that Omega are referred to by its Reference or model number? Does it not understand that collectors buy these watches based on their movement? Did Wimbledon Watches even open the case? ...an impostor in the watch trade, no less.

Back to our Omega on TM… So, to get more of his mindset, I’d like to ask Alex… Let’s say that, for whatever reason, we cannot ask the seller for pictures of the inside of the case back. Tell me what you are expecting to see inside…

1) If this watch is from early-1960s onwards, what do you expect the first 3 digits of the Reference # (xxx.xxx) to be? And why?

2) What Caliber number(s) do you expect to see?

3) What range of movement Serial Number do you expect to see?

[Don]

As you are pointing out Don, there are two questions that that a potential purchaser could be asking.

Firstly, given the nicely arranged photos that were provided in the listing, why is there not some of the movement and inside the case back. The prospective buyer can then verify, as far as is possible from the supplied info that the movement is indeed correct for the model number on the case back. In itself this is not sufficient given the case back could also be wrong but it’s a start.

Secondly, the movement itself may have been subject to some work in the past that has kept it going but greatly diminished its value. Swapping parts from another caliber, inconsistencies in the standard of finish on the movement parts are all red flags. Not being able to see the movement in the listing is a critical issue, especially as the case back comes off so easily.

Excellent elaboration, Tempus. Thank you.

Indeed there is enormous value that can be gained from seeing the back of the watch off, and you’ve demonstrated that you know what you would be looking for when that back is off. This is again due to your experience, as too many buyers are stuck in an outdated 90s paradigm that fake Swiss watches would have a Japanese or Chinese movement inside—for those who don’t keep up with replicas, fake Rolex now have movements inside that looks to the untrained eyes exactly like a Rolex movement. So, for these less-informed buyers, they would ask to see the movement simply to see that it "looks" like an Omega movement with Omega logo on it. Most watchmakers, while a profession I greatly appreciate, don’t do any better than that either.

As mentioned above, you have an awareness of the authenticity issues related to these watches, or as Steve puts it, you know when to be “on guard”. Since you’ve brought up the issue of movement parts being swapped—considering also what I noted in post #7 above about Omega watches in different price tiers sharing a common family of movement, Tempus—which of these following models of mid-20^th Century Omega would you be most “on guard”? That is, which should you pay extra attention to the authenticity of their movements?

A. Geneve

B. De Ville

C. Seamaster (incl. Seamaster Cosmic and Seamaster De Ville)

D. Seamaster Chronometer

E. Constellation

...and why?

A listing for a well worn Seamaster De Ville provides some comparison for the Seamaster script for example.

Yes, though this comparison can get complicated and cannot fully be relied upon until two things are understood. Both of these things relate to “knowing what to expect”. The first, relating to knowing the history of the model, is to know that there are variations in the Seamaster dial script. From the introduction of the Seamaster range to around 1961, the script was done a certain way, then during the early-1960s, the script was changed.

The style of the Seamaster script can indeed help to get an approximation on the vintage year, but only if—and this relates to understanding authenticity issues--one is certain that the dial is 1) original to the watch, and 2) has not been refinished. On this watch, at this stage of our authentication process, neither has been ascertained.

[captainscarlet1]

I'm not sure I expect anything Don. If I come across a watch that interests me, I research it. I have no expectations. I don't pretend to be an expert, (What is an expert nowadays anyway, with instant access to almost limitless information??) but what I am good at is getting to the bottom of a puzzle. With Omega, I need a good photo of the inside of the caseback in order to start on a good footing. If I don't see one I bypass the listing. There are after all, thousands of watches available at any one time, so there is always another one round the corner. The subject watch seller immediately cast doubt on the listing by omitting this one aspect....they did it intentionally or they didn't....to deceive....or not....who knows?.....I instantly forgot about it. Sure I could hold a list of calibre numbers in my brain and from memory I recall they range from 300ish up to the 700's in the vintage Seamster range,(I do like movements ) and also I might find room for all the case references, and dates they were introduced and instantly cross reference them all to arrive at a iron clad conclusion....Sadly I'm of an age where memory storage is at a critical level so I relinquish that storage to things like remembering to do my fly up after visiting the toilet.
Serial numbers and case references can be looked up with a fair degree of accuracy so that is how my "road map" begins to form. How deep the rabbit hole goes depends entirely on the price being asked. The dial pic on the subject watch (with bracelet) ensured I wouldn't bother burrowing.

[Don]

I'm not sure I expect anything Don. If I come across a watch that interests me, I research it. I have no expectations. I don't pretend to be an expert, (What is an expert nowadays anyway, with instant access to almost limitless information??) but what I am good at is getting to the bottom of a puzzle. With Omega, I need a good photo of the inside of the caseback in order to start on a good footing. If I don't see one I bypass the listing. There are after all, thousands of watches available at any one time, so there is always another one round the corner. The subject watch seller immediately cast doubt on the listing by omitting this one aspect....they did it intentionally or they didn't....to deceive....or not....who knows?.....I instantly forgot about it. Sure I could hold a list of calibre numbers in my brain and from memory I recall they range from 300ish up to the 700's in the vintage Seamster range,(I do like movements ) and also I might find room for all the case references, and dates they were introduced and instantly cross reference them all to arrive at a iron clad conclusion....Sadly I'm of an age where memory storage is at a critical level so I relinquish that storage to things like remembering to do my fly up after visiting the toilet.
Serial numbers and case references can be looked up with a fair degree of accuracy so that is how my "road map" begins to form. How deep the rabbit hole goes depends entirely on the price being asked....

I like that answer! And I’m sure others here can learn from it as well. The experience you have accumulated over the years, Alex, has given you an acute instinct and in turn confidence to approach it in a more fluid way—and works well for you and that’s great! My methods can sometimes take on the same adaptive and calibrating as I go approach too, but in recent years, I’ve found that this acquired competency is hard to teach and pass onto others who want to learn. So, I’ve been trying to fit it in to a framework that others can pick up on, practice, and adopt over time, but still taking shorter time than it took me to get here.

With the questions, I didn’t mean to quiz you or anything and I certainly don’t expect you to know it off the top of your head—I myself can only remember, like, one, but can reliably access the other two within minutes, off-line. The questions were merely a lead-on to examining deductive thinking process that one can learn to make in cases like these. However, there were still gems within your response, and if I can extract the part that, I feel, is very crucial in successful vintage watch hunting. I’m talking about your self-discipline.

What you shared about either getting the Reference or walking away sounds simple, but for most novices, difficult to do in practice. They find it hard, if not near impossible, to just “leave on the table” what they desire so much with their emotion. It’s an intoxicating cocktail of greed and fear—greed in wanting something for cheap, and fear of missing out on that cheap thing, or fear of being outbid by a dollar… just up-bid a dollar more and it will be mine! ...Having your mindset of there being many more fish in the sea is healthy for both the quality of one’s collection, and one's wallet.

Have a rule or condition, stick to it, and carry it out, all the while being unattached to that particular watch. That's a great take-away for many here. ...Thank you.