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Omega Seamaster Automatic Vintage Watch (WR0608)

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  • #31
    Hi Don, thanks again for your time and efforts put to attach examples of repainted watches for my understanding.
    About your watches ,you mean COOOOOLLL.

    Ibrar


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

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    • #32
      Originally posted by ibrar View Post
      ..

      About your watches ,you mean COOOOOLLL.


      Whoa! I didn't see that one coming ha! Thank you for saying so, but not the exact word I was after ...That would only be the answer if I were the kind of person to refer to myself as a stable genius ...You can try again if you like. Also, captianscarlet1 has contributed another good example, so I can include it in the question (thanks, Alex!)...






      ...and I'll throw this question out to anybody that would like to answer.

      In Post# 24 (https://www.timekeeper.co.nz/forum/w...9527#post39527), I posed a question to which I will now add captainscarlet1's Omega Seamaster above:

      What is the one quality that my Constellation, Baume Automatic, and Alex's Seamaster above have in common that the Seamaster of this topic doesn’t? I’m hinting at a feeling, an impression—one word that can suitably reflect the state of the Constellation, the Baume, and the Seamaster above, BUT can't be used to describe the Seamaster under review? (...further hint: this word starts with a “C”)
      Last edited by Don; 28-02-18, 21:23.
      A watch journey that also serves the betterment of others is one worth taking.

      Comment


      • Sarbie
        Sarbie commented
        Editing a comment
        corosion? ...if that is right i have not gone to the end first honest. Being weeks behind everyone else I am fully aware i am playing on my own here...

      • Sarbie
        Sarbie commented
        Editing a comment
        I also think the script is always thinner and finer, printed not painted it seems

    • #33
      Character.
      Harlan
      Timekeeper Watch Club
      Auckland, New Zealand, Pacific Ocean, Earth

      Comment


      • captainscarlet1
        captainscarlet1 commented
        Editing a comment
        With dial script which is crisp, clear, concise and correct

    • #34
      You agree with the person jamming their hand into the power outlet

      Comment


      • #35
        Sorry to lower the tone here Don, but when you describe the Crooked WIS, a C-word springs to mind! Probably better that I don’t use it here though.

        Comment


        • #36
          Originally posted by Tempus View Post
          Sorry to lower the tone here Don, but when you describe the Crooked WIS, a C-word springs to mind! Probably better that I don’t use it here though.
          LOL! Tempus, not that C-word... Guess again, please.



          Originally posted by harlansmart View Post
          [COLOR=#2F4F4F]Character.[

          captainscarlet1
          #33.1
          captainscarlet1 commented
          Today, 15:12
          With dial script which is crisp, clear, concise and correct

          /COLOR]
          Harlan & Alex,

          Your experiences put together might just make those answers correct in themselves, and I do agree that the Constellation, Alex’s Seamaster, and my Baume Automatic can indeed be described with words like character, crisp, clear, concise, and correct. However, I’m looking for something here that would serve as a means of authentication—i.e. a tool, if you like, for authenticating watches across the board, regardless of age, origin, brand, and price range.

          Authenticating based on quality or relative correctness is an acquired skill that can take years to attain a reliable outcome. I have known jewelers with decades of experience who can authentic a Rolex using only a loupe. Well, actually, authenticate just Rolex dials and hands using a loupe, and their experience means that, by merely examining the case and bracelet with their bare hands and naked eyes, they can confirm with high certainty whether cases and bracelet are genuine. However, this is very specialized knowledge, and such jewelers require in-depth knowledge of a brand—in this case, Rolex—but less likely to be able use the same skill set to authenticate other brands, or vintages.

          These kinds of specialized skill—like those of Harlan and captainscalet1—relies on comparison with a known reliable entity, whether that entity is seen side-by-side (physical or through images) with the suspect watch, or whether, in the case my jeweler friend, the correct version is stored in their memory. Relying solely on this kind of comparative techniques to assess quality may eventually face stumbles when one is faced with a pro-job like this:





          ...because there is no argument that the above watch is crisp, clear, concise, and correct. Character then becomes rather subjective. Authenticating by judging quality of material or craftsmanship can also stumble when one comes across something like this 1970 Oris Cal 671:






          ...which many seasoned vintage collectors may yell “fake!”, due to the lack of the kind of quality they expect of an entry-level luxury brand, not a Timex-level watch. When in fact, the only thing non-original about the above Oris is the Nato strap! This can only be understood if one is aware that, in the 1970s, Oris was a budget brand, much like Timex, and it’s expected that the above specimen would have a base metal case and mediocre, barely-passable quality dial. It did have an in-house Oris manual-wind movement, however, which was the reason I bought it at the time.

          Anyway, this Oris had only a fraction of the build quality of its 1970s contemporary, the Sea-Gull ST5, which was five time the watch the Oris was in all aspects, including the movement.






          So now, I’ve introduced another two images, another two watches—the Oris Cal 671 and Sea-Gull ST5. Both of these watches, along with my Constellation, Baum, and Alex’s Seamaster above, have something in common that the Seamaster of our topic doesn’t.

          We are looking for a quality that, with a bit of conscientious practice, anyone—in particular the vintage newbies here—can learn to use as a tool to assess authenticity.
          A further clue is that this quality, this word starting with “C”, does not require any kind of knowledge of a particular make or brand. It does not require any external comparison, so can be done even if Google Image cease to exist. And yes, it can be used to authenticate the flawlessly redialed Korean Omega Seamaster above too!

          What is this Cxxxxxxxxx? ​​​​​​​





          A watch journey that also serves the betterment of others is one worth taking.

          Comment


          • #37
            Cautious
            “I want to touch base on how we’ll synergize the pivot going forward”

            Comment


            • #38
              Don, those are great examples of the point I believe you are hoping we will see.
              One of the reasons that we enjoy the watches so much, particularly the older examples is that are all consistent, consistent with their era, technology and their condition.
              Today I had the enjoyment of wearing a Tissot visodate automatic which is definitely a contemporary of the Seamaster that started this thread. A trip to the watchmaker saw new batteries sourced for a Seiko H023 ani-digi and a Seiko 0903 quartz. Each represents a stage in the progression of watchmaking but the reason I have these particular examples is that are all completely original and consistent.
              I have been lucky to have been treated well by the TKNZ community and mostly my modest collection, varied as it is, has watches that are consistent in their condition, show signs of use but have not been renewed except for consumable parts. For example I have a Longines Ultra-chron with a dial that has age spots, but they match the hands and the case in terms of wear and tear. It is a favourite also because it is correct in every respect and it is a hi-beat movement, a technical pinnacle.
              I have also learned the hard way that “watch-lust” and the fever of the auction can lead to ownership of watches that add to our “experience”. I still have those watches, they serve to remind me that the advice provided by so many in this thread is good advice.
              Do the research, know the watch, buy the seller and remember, there will always be another one. Probably....
              Last edited by Tempus; 01-03-18, 19:45.

              Comment


              • captainscarlet1
                captainscarlet1 commented
                Editing a comment
                Has Tempus got it? "Consistency?" If not I give up lol

            • #39
              Cohesion? Forming a whole as it were...

              ....carry on
              If I think of something witty, I'll be sure to write it here.

              Comment


              • #40
                Originally posted by Stevo_iwc View Post
                Cautious
                Not quite what's on my mind, Steve ...but yes, I think caution can never be stressed quite enough. So, thank you!


                Originally posted by sjb View Post
                Cohesion? Forming a whole as it were...

                ....
                You’re kind of on the right track, sjb, so getting warm... but cohesion is not the exact perspective I’m after, as it applies more to two or more entities coming together, becoming united or connected as one. You can comment on cohesion in design, for example, a dress watch with a diver style dial, or vice versa, would likely lack cohesion. Fitting fine genuine lizard straps onto a Seiko Tuna would also lack cohesion, i.e. doesn't go together.

                I’ll reply to Tempus a little bit later on...




                A watch journey that also serves the betterment of others is one worth taking.

                Comment


                • #41
                  Caveat emptor
                  “I want to touch base on how we’ll synergize the pivot going forward”

                  Comment


                  • #42
                    Originally posted by Tempus View Post
                    Don, those are great examples of the point I believe you are hoping we will see.

                    ...the reason I have these particular examples is that are all completely original and consistent.
                    I have been lucky to have been treated well by the TKNZ community and mostly my modest collection, varied as it is, has watches that are consistent in their condition, show signs of use but have not been renewed except for consumable parts. For example I have a Longines Ultra-chron with a dial that has age spots, but they match the hands and the case in terms of wear and tear. It is a favourite also because it is correct in every respect and it is a hi-beat movement, a technical pinnacle....


                    captainscarlet1 commented
                    Yesterday, 21:19
                    Has Tempus got it? "Consistency?" If not I give up lol


                    Thank you for that, Tempus. I left a little bit of time for anyone who has found this topic late to catch up on our discussion. Hopefully, the answers that they have in their minds, if I have engaged them enough, is either one of the words already attempted by our members, or some may even share your line of thought.

                    Authenticity implies that the timepiece was manufactured from the factory with the exact parts—bar those intended to be periodically replaced (crown, glass, and if applicable, leather straps and bezel insert)—that are present in the watch in the present time. What this means is that, with the exception of the consumables mentioned, the condition of every component of the piece should be congruent. The case, case back, bezel (if present), movement, dial, hands, and any other item claimed to be “original” should be consistent in their state of wear, damage, aging, or deterioration. Assessing authenticity in this manner can be applied to all watches of all origins, all makes, of any vintage year, regardless of price range.

                    You seem to be saying—as concluded by Alex—that this word I am thinking of is “consistency”… It is close enough, and I’ll take it. Well done! ...I’d also take anyone's answer, had they mentioned or described an agreement in nature or even harmony. The word I am trying to lead us to is Congruence.

                    We have all been, to varying extent, enchanted by the devices that keep time. Ironically, Time is a great vandal… or a great beautifier, depending on how you look at it. Like a serial graffiti artist, Time leaves its mark indiscriminately on all that it touches—including the very contraptions that keep time, i.e. our watches. Like graffiti, each is different, even if they are the same shaped graffiti, because the surfaces they are applied to are different, and so are the places and time.

                    These marks are like signatures for each watch, and after decades have passed, even two watches made on the same assembly line, on the same day, by the same assembler, can have very different signs of aging, depending on their usage and care received. When the marks or signs of aging on different components of the same watch are consistent with each other, in harmony with each other, we have congruence. Congruence is very difficult to recreate, especially with the circumstances where a lot of refurbished and Franken-watches originate. Put-together watches are not assembled by watchmakers who have plentiful supplies of old watch parts to carefully select, match, and assemble. They are the work people who have limited genuine parts in usable or functioning condition—people who are driven to make up their own dials and cases just to hold movements they found in a parts bin.

                    Once you have attained this perspective, it is not hard to see that congruence is the most valuable quality on a vintage watch, an irreplaceable element that, once lost, cannot be regained. No attempt of finding genuine NOS parts to fit a vintage piece can ever bring back its congruence. You will see this irreplaceable quality here…







                    You can see congruence here…







                    Congruence is here too…







                    ...and here…







                    What is the most valuable, most irreplaceable thing that you can see in this Seiko 6309 Diver from 1979?







                    Yes, congruence.



                    What gives this Benrus GG-W-113 its collector’s value?







                    Congruence, again! Replacing anything, repainting anything on this watch will very likely destroy congruence. When you take away congruence from a vintage piece, you lose the one thing—the fingerprint of Time—that can support its authenticity. When someone repaints the dial of their watch, that is what they irreversibly destroy.

                    Is it possible to improve its condition while retaining congruence? Yes, it’s possible, but very, very difficult, and beyond the resources available to most watch refurbishers. Learning how to read congruence requires very little knowledge about watches—did you need to know anything at all about Vietnam-era American military-issued pilot's watch to have a feeling that the above Benrus is authentic? No, you didn’t have to.

                    Recognizing congruence does require common sense and lots of practice. Congruence can be elusive to most people, hard to put a finger on precisely, but once you train yourself to see congruence, it is the first thing that will strike you when you look at a vintage watch. Congruence is everywhere in everything, but you have to be able to see it. Simple things like the fact that a vintage watch claiming to be “mint” should still have its original crown and crystal, or that gold-plated parts would show more wear than those in stainless steel, or that coloured or dyed components, e.g. red inscriptions or hands, normally loses their pigment over time.

                    Assessing congruence requires little specialized knowledge—your significant other would more than likely be able to tell you immediately that something doesn’t seem right. Yet, I am constantly amazed at how even seemingly seasoned collectors and buyers fail to see this.
                    Last edited by Don; 02-03-18, 20:20.
                    A watch journey that also serves the betterment of others is one worth taking.

                    Comment


                    • harlansmart
                      harlansmart commented
                      Editing a comment
                      SPYDERCO NATIVE

                    • Sarbie
                      Sarbie commented
                      Editing a comment
                      "Time is a great vandal" lovely quote Don

                  • #43
                    And there we have it.....Congruence...... (Last time I used that term was 40 odd years ago...Something to do with triangles balancing I think School was never my strong point)..... Did you change it so that Tempus didn't quite get the answer? Was there a prize? Was it a Patek Philippe Nautilus per chance Whatever......I couldn't agree more, and as usual Don, communicated with Sensei like panache. Particularly relevant when looking at watch dials of any make, they are the hardest aesthetic component of a watch, for any restorer to replicate. I have to say now, that the Korean redial put me off straight away as the area where the cross hair passed through the Omega logo was not congruent with accepted perimeters in my book, along with a couple of other problems but it was pretty good all the same. Thanks again Don ........
                    Preparation and planning prevent piss poor performance

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                    • #44
                      Thank you, Alex. Glad you agree!


                      Originally posted by captainscarlet1 View Post
                      ..... Did you change it so that Tempus didn't quite get the answer? ........
                      ...now, that's a thought! ...Well, only if I had a time machine to go back a bit over a year ago, log into our forum, and posted this.... https://www.timekeeper.co.nz/forum/w...3676#post33676
                      A watch journey that also serves the betterment of others is one worth taking.

                      Comment


                      • #45
                        I bow to historical evidence sir!!!
                        Preparation and planning prevent piss poor performance

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