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Omega Seamaster Automatic Vintage Watch (WR0608)

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  • #46
    I feel the watch is clearly redialed but I disagree with the early comment about the bezel.

    Comment


    • #47
      Harry, thank you for hopping on our topic. I and others here on this thread greatly appreciate your input.

      To other active TKNZ members--and the site stats says there are 98--who is reading this right now but have not jumped on this thread, please do consider participating. Please remember that, in an online environment like this, intense interest but not saying anything and disinterest look the same... We're probably only half way through this, and if you were me, you too would be thinking hard about whether to proceed, or that the lack of interest would devalue your message... So, please get involved.


      Originally posted by Harry View Post
      I feel the watch is clearly redialed but I disagree with the early comment about the bezel.
      Good! And you would of course not be surprised if I were to ask you to please elaborate more on why you think the Omega is "clearly redialed". I'd like you to describe your feeling in such a way that it might be useful to someone new to vintages, i.e. our feelings, gut feeling, or instinct are of course valid, but they aren't so transferable to others that want to learn. As this is a discovery thread, if you could share your thought process, I'd really appreciate that.

      As for the issue of the bezel, this was an initial observation made by one of our members in Post# 2 of the thread (https://www.timekeeper.co.nz/forum/w...9428#post39428), not yet but still waiting to beconcluded, and to which I replied back with a question...


      Originally posted by Don View Post

      Something not “looking right” is a good start. It means your instinct, gained through experience, has told you to be cautious. However, if someone were to ask me to authenticate this watch, I need to be able to tell them more than “my gut feeling is telling me”. That person will want objective evidence. So, Steve, if you wanted to prove that some part is missing, or that another part was altered, how might you do that?

      [/COLOR]
      I think Steve may have missed the question ...So, as you, Harry, think otherwise, I'll pose this question to you instead... If you wanted to prove that this watch is complete as is, without any additional bezel part, how might you do that? Again, please explain in a way that vintage newbies would have the best chance of grasping.

      Last edited by Don; 03-03-18, 12:52.
      A watch journey that also serves the betterment of others is one worth taking.

      Comment


      • #48
        In regards to the bezel - I believe this particular model would not of had a bezel insert which missing, having viewed the photos of the watch. The bezel looks fine as is for this particular watch.

        Newbies would be encouraged to view similar examples to a prospective watch purchase on websites such as ebay where it is possible to (at times) view many examples. It is very difficult to identify a re-dial at times and it's always good to seek multiple opinions.

        Below are my thoughts on this watch. I don't necessarily have an issue with old watches with clean dials as it is possible to have old examples which haven't had much wear. I tend to focus on the characteristics/quality of the painting of all components. Often the logo is the easiest to review e.g. with Rolex, the redials are often quite poor.

        Comment


        • #49
          Thanks again to everyone who's participating in this thread of learning 10/10

          I have been given a new word, congruence, like CS1 I haven't heard that word used much for decades either myself!

          This thread, is better than Falcon's Crest, it is nearly (but not quite) as good as the weekly arrival of the Woman's Day subscription!

          As for the bezel ring, it's not that it's missing is it, it's just that it's the wrong one?
          Harlan
          Timekeeper Watch Club
          Auckland, New Zealand, Pacific Ocean, Earth

          Comment


          • harlansmart
            harlansmart commented
            Editing a comment
            I mean it's 'too flat' & 'theres not enough of it'?

        • #50
          This is a good redial (Korean eh, wow).

          A watch this good, a full-on 'Safe Queen' would likely have it's original strap, booklet & boxset too, otherwise it's 'too good'.

          Click image for larger version

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          Harlan
          Timekeeper Watch Club
          Auckland, New Zealand, Pacific Ocean, Earth

          Comment


          • #51
            Thanks again, Harry—a detailed explanation of the exact sort I’m after, and as we often say on forums, “this thread would suck without pics”, so you brought one for us too! I’ll compose a proper reply to you later this evening, so please check back for that.

            Thanks also to Harlan, for the comments in the two posts above.

            But right now, I would like to get something out of the way first, and it is something that seems to be causing a bit of confusion, distracting us away from what we’re primarily analyzing currently. This is the bezel, or lack of, or correct/incorrect, what not… so just wanted to clear this out.

            Originally posted by Harry View Post
            In regards to the bezel - I believe this particular model would not of had a bezel insert which missing, having viewed the photos of the watch. The bezel looks fine as is for this particular watch.
            Originally posted by harlansmart View Post


            As for the bezel ring, it's not that it's missing is it, it's just that it's the wrong one?

            To my understanding, what Stevo_iwc observed initially about the bezel being missing, I think he rightly meant the circular ring that is fitted to the top of the case, sometimes doing the job of retaining the acrylic crystal. I don’t think he meant a bezel insert as one would find embedded in a rotating diver’s bezel ...Here is a vintage Omega with its bezel missing for real… https://www.timekeeper.co.nz/forum/w...leuba-sea-king ...To be fair, the Omega Seamaster that is the topic of our thread, picture above in Post# 48, does look it could do with a bezel on top of what you can see there.

            However, this is a common style in the 60s and 70s. To illustrate, here is my 1972 Omega Constellation Chronometer Cal 712 (...and if you are a vintage Omega buff, seeing this watch and knowing what it actually is can cause your heart to beat a little fast, yeah? ). This Connie looks like it has lost its bezel too…









            ...but in actual fact, here is Omega’s official file image for this Reference…




            So, no bezel is missing from my Constellation 712, and none is missing from the Seamaster of this thread… I would also like to explain that, when I asked, “if you wanted to prove that some part is missing, or that another part was altered, how might you do that?” ...my point wasn’t to quiz any of you. It’s not that I want to then give you the correct answer and be smug about it haha ... The question can could have been about the crown, the bracelet—anything! it doesn’t matter!

            The important thing was “how might you prove it?” Had someone answered, that would have been a lead-on to some crucial points. When I ask a question, it is not the answer that matters, but the methodology in which you used to arrive at the answer… It’s the How and Why. In this era where one can Google the answer to practically any question, isn't refreshing that a lot of the questions that I ask on this thread cannot be found by Googling? ​​​​​​​

            A watch journey that also serves the betterment of others is one worth taking.

            Comment


            • #52
              I am also following this sale on TM, thought of participating and adding my 2cents

              I am no expert but have my fair share of time browsing vintage timepieces (also I love them to bits)

              Reckon its a redial, the writing ( Automatic ) looks quite off.. also observed that the “omega” and ‘seamaster’ writing is too thick by “genuine” standards.. Initially I always check the font thickness print on vintage pieces. Gen crisp thin writings are hard to replicate, good job done on it though
              I wear my watches on either wrist depending on my mood! I love small vintage timepieces, 30mm for the win!

              Comment


              • #53
                Originally posted by harlansmart View Post

                I have been given a new word, congruence, like CS1 I haven't heard that word used much for decades either myself!
                Hahaha… Harlan, I quite like the word—let’s bring it back into fashion! ….In my humble opinion, it is one of the 3Cs that makes a man.

                - Having Confidence

                - Knowing how to Calibrate—to adapt and have agility in a changing world

                - Having Congruence—the reputation that precedes a man (before others meet you), the experience of interacting, working, and dealing with him (when others meet you), and his integrity, him being his word (subsequent to the meeting)—all should be in agreement.


                But that's off topic..
                Last edited by Don; 03-03-18, 20:44.
                A watch journey that also serves the betterment of others is one worth taking.

                Comment


                • #54
                  Harry, again much appreciated for including the image with notes to clarify your points. Having already touched on the bezel question in Post#51, I will now address each of the points you’ve made. Parts of it will include responses to our new (to posting, that is) member, Kuki, who I must say has really started his first posting day very well —thanks for having your say on this thread! To both of you gents, I would also like to say, as this topic’s OP, that the purpose of this little adventure is not just to authenticate this Seamaster, but more in that it is to examine the validity of the common methods collectors and enthusiasts use to decide on authenticity.

                  The method that Harry and Kuki used are similar if not the same as around 95% of regular vintage buyers including those on the various watch forums use. So, I do not see it as Harry's or Kuki's method, and any comments I make of the methodology are not a criticism on these two members, but of the majority of vintage watch hunters out there. Why question the validity of a method so commonly used? Well, because it only works most of the time, and a testament to this is the sheer number of “Crooked WIS” (https://www.timekeeper.co.nz/forum/w...9567#post39567) having to sell off the mistakes they make.

                  Honestly, I see these Crooked WIS all the time, like the boy in The Sixth Sense could “see dead people”, and eventually someone else gets hurt—on eBay and on TradeMe. It is my hope that all who read this thread and put my advice into practice will never ever have to be in possession of an inauthentic, a Franken-, or counterfeit vintage watch.

                  To start off, Harry has made some great points…


                  Originally posted by Harry View Post
                  Newbies would be encouraged to view similar examples to a prospective watch purchase on websites such as ebay where it is possible to (at times) view many examples. It is very difficult to identify a re-dial at times and it's always good to seek multiple opinions.
                  Good advice, Harry, and would like to add a couple of points of caution.

                  1. Around 3 in 4 (75%) of all vintage Omega on eBay are inauthentic in some way. A decade ago, this percentage use to be around 50% as noted by authorities like Desmond Guilfoyle. That ratio has, however, increased significantly due to new players entering the international market (such as refurbishers in The Philippines and India) and sellers in the West who buys refurbished watches to resell or reselling after a period of ownership. With every passing year, a greater proportion of the Western population become comfortable with on line purchase through Internet auction sites like eBay, so I see the percentage of inauthentic vintage Omega rising to 80-90% in the near future.

                  2. In my personal experience of assisting vintage watch (especially Omega) buyers for over a decade now, when asking someone to find a “similar example” on line, 4 times out of 5, the watch they identify as being “similar” is a different model altogether. I have found that it actually takes extensive experience on part of the buyer to actually accomplish this seemingly easy task.


                  Originally posted by Harry View Post
                  ...I tend to focus on the characteristics/quality of the painting of all components. Often the logo is the easiest to review e.g. with Rolex, the redials are often quite poor.
                  In my humble opinions, this aspect of your approach to selecting vintages contributes the most to your success overall in buying vintages Especially true if you then compare these characteristics/quality in respect to each other, take a step back, see the dial and its elements as whole, then look for the thing I refer to as congruence.


                  Originally posted by Harry View Post



                  ...and to this, I’ll also add suggestions from Kuki...


                  Originally posted by Kuki View Post
                  I am no expert but have my fair share of time browsing vintage timepieces (also I love them to bits)

                  Reckon its a redial, the writing ( Automatic ) looks quite off.. also observed that the “omega” and ‘seamaster’ writing is too thick by “genuine” standards.. Initially I always check the font thickness print on vintage pieces. Gen crisp thin writings are hard to replicate, ...

                  The analysis done here by both Harry and Kuki—very good by the way—is similar to what ibrar did in Post#17 ( https://www.timekeeper.co.nz/forum/w...9508#post39508 ). Yours, Harry, is more detailed, of course. Still, I’d like you to refer back to my response to ibrar in Post# 24 ( https://www.timekeeper.co.nz/forum/w...9527#post39527 )

                  A way to think of methods we use for “spotting fakes” is to see them as a tool in our authentication toolbox. We can indeed have and use more than one “tool” at any given time. However, as with any tool, it is important that we learn its limitations, e.g. a hammer can be an excellent tool when used on nails, but a poor one for chopping down trees and eating ice-cream. The tips-tricks-and-spot-the-mistake-and-poor-quality is also tool, and while it can work a lot of the time—for reasons explained in the earlier posts linked to above—it has limitations.

                  When using this tool, one must be aware of its limitations. Ignore or forget these limiting factors, and it would be like using that hammer to shave your beard.

                  1. The strategy relies on the redialer making the mistakes. For me personally, in life, in my career, and when I play competitive sport, I don’t count on my opponent to make a mistake to win. If one is looking for mistakes on a dial, one is relying on something to happen that is beyond one’s control. What if they don’t make a mistake?

                  What if you are confronted with this repainted dial?






                  Can you spot any mistakes on this dial, also refurbished?





                  What about this one… did the redialer make a mistake?





                  ...and this one?





                  2. The strategy relies on you finding the mistake. What if there are mistakes, but you don’t find them? When I see watch enthusiasts execute this type of strategy, whether on vintages or modern counterfeit/repro, it only looks impressive when there are mistakes to be found. Notice that when the person authenticating doesn’t find a mistake...what normally happens? What should happen is them saying, “I can’t prove this is a fake.”, but nearly everyone in such situation instead say, “This is authentic.”… there is a shocking difference between the two, and most people don’t realize it.

                  3. The strategy fails for Franken-watches. Franken-watches, traditionally referred to as “Marriage or Wedding Watches” use any salvageable, usable, barely usable, and often unusable parts from many watches. A Franken Omega can be completely made from 100% genuine authentic Omega parts, including dial and hands, but still 100% inauthentic, counterfeited, and 100% fake. Franken Omega will not have any mistake on the dial because the dial was authentically made by Omega—they just didn’t fit it on that particular watch.

                  Most jewelers and watchmakers rely on their experience and familiarity with authentic dials and hands. They are alarmingly ill-equipped to deal with well-assembled Franken-watches, because all components of these watches are genuine.

                  4. Comparison with a known authentic specimen often suffers from reliance on weak/false assumptions. A valid comparison can only be made if, and only if, 1) the piece being investigated can be fully ascertained down to its Reference/Model number—I’ve lost count of how many times I have seen buyers making comparative assessments without knowing what that watch exactly is (including this Seamaster of our topic), and 2) one is able to pick out an authentic specimen, successfully avoiding the 75% that are actually inauthentic, to use as reference.

                  In my next post, I will discuss another method of authenticating. It’s more simple, more effective, reliable at detecting Franken-watches, and avoids the pitfalls of comparison. You need not abandon your existing approach—that is one tool you have—but with effort, you can incorporate it to your authentication toolbox.

                  Last edited by Don; 04-03-18, 01:11.
                  A watch journey that also serves the betterment of others is one worth taking.

                  Comment


                  • #55
                    Appreciate this kind of thread Don, definitely making one smarter and aware when purchasing a vintage piece.

                    Those dials you showed are tricky which makes me ask another question regarding vintage dials

                    Repainted vs redials = I always thought that “repainted” dials on vintage is like repairing/cleaning a certain damaged area on the dial but leaving the original logos and writings as is.. hence making the dial still look original with the crisp writings etc but “cleaner or NOS looking”. For me these “repainted” are harder to call out a.) original logo writings is not touched b.) checking out each minute hash marks for inconsistencies is harder to spot on pictures (usually damaged dials gets repainted on the dials face edge and indices)

                    While redial is like totally doing a whole makeover on the old original dial plate that came with the watch and reprintring the logos/writings etc causing the wonky looking texts and logos, a sure tell that dial is no longer “original”

                    again just my 2cents gents

                    please do correct me if I am wrong hahaha, would love to learn more about this kind of stuff

                    cheers

                    I wear my watches on either wrist depending on my mood! I love small vintage timepieces, 30mm for the win!

                    Comment


                    • #56
                      Kuki, I’m very glad you asked the question, as I’m sure it will benefit quite a few here who are starting out in vintages. When I teach these things to people, I try my best to see things from a novice’s perspective, i.e. I try hard not to make assumption of people’s prior knowledge, but there will always be things that I miss. In you asking the question, it helps me to help others as well. I don’t know who to attribute this quote to, but I’m sure you’ve heard before that the sh#ts that you don’t know will kill you. Well, among the sh#ts, the most bad ass of them all are the ones you don’t know that you didn’t know.

                      This is an outstanding example of one, but you can kiss it good-bye, as you’ll now know. Firstly…


                      Originally posted by Kuki View Post

                      ... I always thought that “repainted” dials on vintage is like repairing/cleaning a certain damaged area on the dial but leaving the original logos and writings as is.. hence making the dial still look original with the crisp writings etc but “cleaner or NOS looking”. For me these “repainted” are harder to call out a.) original logo writings is not touched b.) checking out each minute hash marks for inconsistencies is harder to spot on pictures (usually damaged dials gets repainted on the dials face edge and indices)...
                      cheers

                      This is how you currently understand it, but such processes are not possible in the ways that you think. Allow me to show you some examples of Before and After images.




                      Image source: swisswatchservices.com


                      Image source: YouTube screen capture from MakerMends


                      Consider the images above, what you understand as “...repairing/cleaning a certain damaged area on the dial but leaving the original logos and writings as is...” is actually not possible, as the brand name and other dial scripts were originally printed onto a surface, and said surface has aged or have been subjected to damage/deterioration. Not only that, most watch dials are not matte in texture as the above examples, but may have subtle radiant blushing or other types of texture, e.g. linen cloth-like. In both cases, trying to clean or repaint the surfaces without doing so on the background of the dial script will stick out like a sore thumb, an eyesore obvious from arm length away, to not just watch people like us, but pretty much anyone who has eyes.

                      What you describe can be done in certain cases, and this is normally referred to as a repair or retouch—but rarely is it successful, and almost always detectable. A possible candidate for such repair or touch-up is one of many vintage Grand Seiko that I have owned, a 61GAC (6145-8000) from 1969.







                      You can see that there is damage to the minute markers between the 4 and 5 o’clock positions Sometime during the 40 years prior to my acquisition of this GS, the timepiece had likely been stored or kept for extended period in a sort of crown-down position, with the 10 o’clock marker pointing up. Being in the temperate zone, winter came, temperature and humidity dropped, and the ambient moisture in the case condensate and gathered on the edge of the dial, resulting over time in dissolving those minute markers from the dial. Watches can talk and can tell a story too—we just need to learn how to listen.

                      This GS61 also bolster why we should not just rely on error-spotting such as looking for missing minute markers ...Anyway, those markers can be repainted on possibly, but I chose not to as that would irreversibly take away its originality.

                      Now to…


                      Originally posted by Kuki View Post

                      ...Repainted vs redials ...

                      While redial is like totally doing a whole makeover on the old original dial plate that came with the watch and reprintring the logos/writings etc causing the wonky looking texts and logos, a sure tell that dial is no longer “original”

                      If I can get you to look back at my previous Post#54, just above yours, and see the four repainted dials that you refer to. You’ll be shocked to know that, according to your understood definition, these are “...totally doing a whole makeover on the old original dial plate that came with the watch and reprinting the logos/writings...”--frightening, isn’t it! ...If these four are thought of as cooking show’s here’s-what-we-prepared-earlier, would you like to know the “recipe”? ...Okay, I’ll let you in on it.

                      1. Get an old dial, not necessarily original to the watch

                      2. Remove all the original paint using glass blasting until the surface is clean and smooth, ready for repainting.

                      3. Repaint the dial surface, repaint any other dyed component of the dial, and apply dial printing using printing plates.

                      4. Polish the hour markers and hands.

                      5. Reapply luminous compound if applicable.



                      The above process can be referred to by many names—dial refurbishment, dial restoration, dial repainting, dial refinishing, or re-dialing—they are all the same. If one wants to add an element of nobility or virtue, one can attach the word “professional” to the front of any of those words.

                      While there are certainly professional craftsman and watchmakers who offer these services, the majority of refurbished watches on the market, especially on eBay were done up not for the love and burning passion for vintage watches. They came into existence for one reason and one reason only—monetary gain. It is profit, not passion, that brought these watches back from the dead. What their makers invest in them depends on what their makers can sell them for.

                      Those who are responsible for the four redialed watches above had access, the resource, and time to follow the 5-step recipe above. Watch assemblers on the streets of Mumbai, however, may have never seen a glass blaster machine nor heard of dial printing plates, let along have the time to polish hands or markers. Both types of watch restorers, whether in Korea or India, do not care about following any rules that we watch collectors may have, and prefer to engage in gorilla-type tactics of watch refurbishment. ebay sellers who include in their description refurbished dial, restored dial, repainting dial, refinished dial, or re-dial are not doing so out of some moral conscience. They do so to keep PayPal’s Buyer Protection from biting them in the backside.

                      In a nutshell, the intent in building refurbished watches is to deceive. It's pure and simple. To the non-watch person or the layman, words in the auction item description that repel you and I (new dial & hands, restored dial, refurbished dial, etc.) mean little to them, and may be even interpreted in a positive way. In normal usage, words like new and restore have positive meanings. It is this group of audience that the refurbishers hope to trap...I mean attract.

                      One thing to note about restored dial that seems to escape a lot of otherwise smart collectors. Let me illustrate with this logic analogy… Let’s say you are in the market for a used yellow golf ball, like this…


                      ...but a seller comes up to you, and says that he has a yellow golf ball. However, he has painted that ball white, but you can, after purchasing it, easily use turpentine to remove the white paint and have your yellow ball. He shows you a photo of the painted ball, and from the quality of the finish, you can tell it has indeed been painted…





                      My question to everyone is… Assuming the seller is in possession of the golf ball above, which of the following can be relied upon as being true?

                      A. The seller has a yellow golf ball.

                      B. The seller has a yellow golf ball painted white.

                      C. The seller has a painted golf ball, and the paint is white.

                      D. All of the above.



                      ...and how can we apply this to our topic of refinished dials?
                      Last edited by Don; 04-03-18, 17:24.
                      A watch journey that also serves the betterment of others is one worth taking.

                      Comment


                      • #57
                        First of all I know nothing about golf balls but if I had to guess I think I would go with "C" .......

                        I just wanted to explore a bit about Dons previous post. I honed in on two words….. Profit and passion. You see us passionate WIS are a tiny, tiny minority within the general population. You only have to look at the active members on our own illustrious, but small forum to gauge where we are in the world. Minute, minuscule and virtually a non entity in the grand scheme of things. These restored pieces aren’t being aimed at us. They cater for the masses, so like any business they will squeeze profits where they can.

                        When you look at watches being sold in different parts of the world you start to see a trend with restorations. Many oriental countries for example like nothing better that an absolutely pristine restoration and will pay premium money for it too. These eastern buyers will run away screaming from “patina”.

                        Sellers, entrepreneurs, call them what you will, supply that market for perfect vintage watches. Who can blame them for supplying the demand their countries cultural tastes dictate.
                        Because we now have a global market, such as it is, this trend starts to filter out to the wider world and all of a sudden, these pristine watches are made available and seen as a pariah to the western WIS community. This situation is inevitable.

                        Good restorations or bad….They are here to stay. Don’s Herculean efforts to educate us will hopefully guide us down the right path. However, I’m sure he would agree that in many instances, there is great merit in keeping a valuable timepiece wearable, and functioning, so I think it is a pretty broad stroke to label all these sellers as “Deceivers”. There is no doubt that some of them are out to deceive, but I don’t think all of them are.
                        As long as any restoration work is laid out in the sellers description, I’m fine with it. I make the choice to buy or not.

                        The watch in question was not described properly so could well fall into the deceiver category. It could well have been just a naive seller. Looking at the watch again it could well be a 166.0002 or 166.0037 housing a cal 562 or 565 with a bad dial and an over groomed case. Or it could just as easily been something cobbled together by some street urchin..... We may never know the answer to that as critical detail was omitted from the auction body. Anyway, just my 2 cents worth.
                        Preparation and planning prevent piss poor performance

                        Comment


                        • #58
                          Alex, thank you—I really appreciate your input, and it is DEFINITELY more your valuation of 2 cents. If I had to put a price on it, it would be closer to $200 Also, in this age where most people are punching words through their mobile phones and tablets, the fact that you have taken the effort to type it out on a computer keyboard is very respectful and gentlemanly of you—again, appreciate it. Before I respond, I’ve just found that Paul left a comment under Harlan’s Post# 16—sorry, just found it today—so I’d like address that.





                          I can definitely relate to that feeling, Paul. You may remember when we first started Watch Out – Authenticate Me sub-forum, our aim was indeed to try and make TradeMe watch board a better and safer place to buy watches. We tried to stamp out the inauthentic, the Franken-, and the fakes by empowering members with knowledge and urging them and TM to intervene in such listings, whether or not the seller had ill intent. It worked most of the time, but the landscape—sellers, buyers, and access buyers has to non-genuine watches—kept shifting, making it near-impossible to keep the local market clean.

                          When we won, the victory was usually known just among us, little appreciation was received, and most of those who benefited from our campaign didn’t even know they did. But when we lost, the seller usually got away, buyer suffered, and we get abuses and threats of lawsuits—and still, most of those who benefited from our campaign didn’t know they did. So, I feel you, Paul, and those “some people” that Paul spoke of—I feel you too.

                          This is why, in recent times, my goal isn’t to stop or take down any running auction, nor go after bad watch sellers. My objective is to stop us—members of TKNZ and any non-members who frequent these pages—from buying such watches and from such sellers. Doing this helps to protect our members’ money or investment, and lessens the chance of watch enthusiasts having to sell or get rid of an inauthentic vintage. I am also aware that, for most of us here including those new to the forum, each of us is probably the most knowledgeable among our friends and family when it comes to watches. This means that each of us can also impact others around us when they are considering a purchase.

                          This thread, like my thread on Franken-vintage Seiko & Citizen (
                          https://www.timekeeper.co.nz/forum/w...-seiko-citizen), attempts to do just that.

                          [A shout out to the seller of the watch on this thread, ‘steviemiller’--if you happen to be reading this. Please know that we are analyzing and are critical of the watch in your possession and your action related to it. We are not judging you as a person, just the action you took. If it were my watch and I did this, I expect the forum to do the same—it is fair game, as far as I’m concerned.… It seems to me that you do like watches, and I hope that what you learn from this thread will better inform your future purchases and your conduct should this watch ever come onto the market again.]

                          I’ll respond to captainscalet1’s post later on this evening. Thank you.

                          Last edited by Don; 06-03-18, 20:18.
                          A watch journey that also serves the betterment of others is one worth taking.

                          Comment


                          • #59
                            Originally posted by captainscarlet1 View Post
                            ...Looking at the watch again it could well be a 166.0002 or 166.0037 housing a cal 562 or 565 with a bad dial and an over groomed case. Or it could just as easily been something cobbled together by some street urchin..... We may never know the answer to that as critical detail was omitted from the auction body.
                            Very good! I thought you’d forgotten I asked those questions haha… Indeed, these are answers to my question to you in Post# 12 (https://www.timekeeper.co.nz/forum/w...9458#post39458), and you even went further than that to suggest some possible Reference this watch could be! Hmm.. they could be candidates, Alex, though I have my own guesses ...I asked captainscalet1:

                            Let’s say that, for whatever reason, we cannot ask the seller for pictures of the inside of the case back. Tell me what you are expecting to see inside…

                            1) If this watch is from early-1960s onwards, what do you expect
                            the first 3 digits
                            of the Reference # (xxx.xxx) to be? And why?
                            Ans:
                            While we cannot prove what the exact Reference (model) the watch is, if it is from 1961 onward, it would have a 7-digit reference. The first three digits would be “1 6 6”. The reason is that this is a Gent’s watch (1) that is an automatic with sweep/centre second (6), and is a Seamaster (water-resistant) with a Date (6). If the watch is from 1960 or earlier, then expect an old Reference number, e.g. CK 14701

                            2) What Caliber number(s) do you expect to see?
                            Ans:
                            The style indicates an early-1960s model, and this one requires that you know what movements equipped Seamasters. So, possible automatic modules with Date that were in Seamasters of the era was either 562 or 565.

                            3) What range of movement Serial Number do you expect to see?
                            Ans: I expect the movement serial number to be in the range from 18xxxxxx to 28xxxxxx.


                            The main points that I am making through the above exercise is that 1) authentication by comparison or spotting errors cannot be made unless one knows the exact Reference No., which in this case, we don’t, but 2) we should still “know what to expect”, even with the limited information available. It doesn’t mean that all will as we expect, but through knowing what to expect, one has a degree of confidence that one knows enough about the watch to make an informed purchase decision.

                            A good rule of thumb for everyone is that, if you come across a watch that you don’t know “anything” about, then you are not ready to make an informed decision. If you pull the trigger on that watch, it will be an uninformed decision, and like all uninformed decisions, you’ll need to live with the consequence.


                            Originally posted by captainscarlet1 View Post
                            ...I know nothing about golf balls but if I had to guess I think I would go with "C" ....…
                            “C” is correct. Maybe someone else will join our chat, and help explain why.


                            Originally posted by captainscarlet1 View Post
                            ...

                            I just wanted to explore a bit about Dons previous post. I honed in on two words….. Profit and passion. You see us passionate WIS are a tiny, tiny minority within the general population. You only have to look at the active members on our own illustrious, but small forum to gauge where we are in the world. Minute, minuscule and virtually a non entity in the grand scheme of things. These restored pieces aren’t being aimed at us. They cater for the masses, so like any business they will squeeze profits where they can.

                            When you look at watches being sold in different parts of the world you start to see a trend with restorations. Many oriental countries for example like nothing better that an absolutely pristine restoration and will pay premium money for it too. These eastern buyers will run away screaming from “patina”.

                            Sellers, entrepreneurs, call them what you will, supply that market for perfect vintage watches. Who can blame them for supplying the demand their countries cultural tastes dictate.
                            Because we now have a global market, such as it is, this trend starts to filter out to the wider world and all of a sudden, these pristine watches are made available and seen as a pariah to the western WIS community. This situation is inevitable.
                            You make some very valid points, Alex, and for the large part, I do agree. You have definitely been musing over the idea of the origin and reason for being of these watches. While the main takeaway that I’d like people reading to focus is more the outcome of avoiding such watches, regardless of their origin or reasons for their creation, since you touch on this aspect, I’d like to comment a little.

                            Those who know me in person know that I have lived and worked on a few different continents across cultures, and influence of cultural values on the design of watches, through to purchase decisions made by buyers from different cultures have always been of interest. I’ve made some personal observations over the decades, and since this might interest you, I’ll share a little about vintage watch buyers in Asia, compared to those in Western countries. You can also say that these things also apply to Asians living in Western countries as well.

                            For this purpose, I will exclude Japanese vintage watch buyers, as they are uniquely distinct from other Asian buyers.

                            1) With regards to all products (and real estate properties), the vast majority of Asian buyers prefer to buy new, unused. This is especially true for clothing, jewelry, and watches. Vintage watches are considered used items, however beautiful they are. The only times used items are considered is when the buyer cannot afford to buy new (this applies to cars and watches too). This means that a larger portion of the population in the West is interested in vintage watches than in Asia. A larger portion of vintage watch buyers in the West buy because they like vintages, even if they could afford a new watch from that brand. A very small portion of the vintage watch buyers in Asia buy vintages if they could afford a new (or even a used but newer model) watch of the same brand.

                            2) Nostalgia—one primary reason for the love of vintage watches—affects Western buyers more than Asian buyers. Most Asians embrace progress and change, while more Westerners yearn for the good ole days, i.e. nostalgia. The nostalgic feeling that I’m referring to here is those connected to vintage or antique items, and not that of classic- or retro-style modern products (e.g. a modern re-edition classic watch), which appeal to Asian buyers too—as long as the item is not in a used. Many Western travelers will relate with how, when they are in Asia and a classic car drives by, they are usually more impressed by it than the locals, who tends to see the classic car as just a very old car.

                            3) Most Asian buyers care more about status symbolism and perceived status than do Westerners. Asian society are more hierarchical than that of the West. Most Asians care more about how others might perceive their status from their watch than being stylish or making a statement. Something “new” or “current” is considered higher status than something old, used, or vintage.

                            With these observations in mind, you might now start to see that vintages are less preferred in Asia than it is in the West. It is actually not about “patina” or the worn-out aesthetics, but because it is a "used” item. In many Asian cultures, wearing on your body an item that has been closely worn on another’s body that you don’t know, brings an uncomfortable feeling in their minds. The concept of provenance, valued by Western watch lovers, just creeps the hell of most Asian buyers—if you’d like to freak an Asian buyer out, just mention that it's a deceased estate! If the watch belonged to your dad, uncle, brother, or someone you respect, this would of course be fine.

                            There are, however, vintage watch collectors and enthusiast in Asia, and has always been. They are, in fact, just like us. They care about authenticity and genuine watches, and they love learning and sharing about watches, just like us. You can see this happening on their watch forums, some in English, like in Singapore and Malaysia, and some in The Philippines and Indonesia that you can read using a browser with translation functions—try it!

                            The Asian watch buyers that you refer to who only want absolutely pristine restoration free from patina are actually not the collectors nor enthusiasts of Asia, nor are those watches fitting the cultural taste. The cultural taste is only for new, unworn items, never vintages. However, there are portion of the population in Asia, and it happens to be the same portion of population that we have here in NZ, that see Ryan Gosling wearing a vintage Omega in La La Land, and want to be cool like Gosling. They go out or, for NZ, log into TradeMe, to look for any vintage Omega that catches their eyes, and that would look good on their Instagram snaps.

                            In Asia, there are more vintage watches than in NZ, relative to the population, and vintage watch sellers have always competed for buyers. For both Asia and NZ, minty-looking refurbished watches would draw more buyers, and the difference is that there are means in Asia that don’t exist in NZ. Add to that, a plentiful supply of old parts and cheaper labour cost mean that labour-intensive work can still be accomplished on a tight budget. Such operations weren’t very lucrative, and one would make more money selling counterfeit watches, which many did.

                            That all changed with eBay. Suddenly, there was a place that watch assemblers could make heaps more money than selling to the local market who view vintages only as cheaper alternatives to new watches. It is important to note that the vast majority of Asia do not use eBay, instead having their own auction sites like we have TradeMe. While Asians in general look up to Westerners as the more developed people, businesses that target Western buyers tend to also see Western buyers as gullible, more trusting, and easier to trick.

                            No, these sellers are not evil in their minds, nor are they completely immoral. They do have a justification, and that justification is a matter of leveling the playing field, to make up for all the privileges of the Western developed world that you have and they don't... So, while watch re-dialling skills may have first been developed to gain competitive edge in the local used watch market, the form in which it exists today is far from that route. Why continue to sell to buyers who sees you as (and expect you to be offering) cheap alternative to new-watch ownership, when one can sell to the Western world where there are more buyers who purchase your watches for the sort of money one can buy new?

                            You can actually see the development of this kind of assembly/supply from the emergence around 10 years ago of The Philippines as the hub for vintage Seiko divers. For around 30 years from the late-1970s, these old Seiko dive watches were sitting neglected in the islands of The Philippines, no one wanted them, not the locals, not anyone. Then all of a sudden, vintage Seiko divers were the thing among Western watch enthusiasts, who were driving nearly 100% of the demand for watches. A whole industry was born and exists til today, manufacturing after-market parts for vintage Seiko to feed the world’s hunger for old Seiko.


                            Originally posted by captainscarlet1 View Post
                            ...
                            ...
                            Good restorations or bad….They are here to stay. Don’s Herculean efforts to educate us will hopefully guide us down the right path. However, I’m sure he would agree that in many instances, there is great merit in keeping a valuable timepiece wearable, and functioning, so I think it is a pretty broad stroke to label all these sellers as “Deceivers”. There is no doubt that some of them are out to deceive, but I don’t think all of them are.
                            As long as any restoration work is laid out in the sellers description, I’m fine with it. I make the choice to buy or not.
                            I understand where you are coming from, Alex. It is a little harsh for me to have used the word “deceive”, isn’t it? :D ...Yeah, I know what you mean. The word, and its synonym, “to lie”, has an emotional quality attached to it, and no one wants to be associated with those words. According to the dictionary, to deceive is to deliberately cause (someone) to believe something that is not true, especially for personal gain. This can also be “softened" down a bit to "give (someone) a mistaken impression”. So, I can if you wish retract the word deceive, and change my observation earlier to:

                            In a nutshell, the intent in building refurbished watches is to give buyers a mistaken impression.

                            I’m being cheeky here, I know! … Yes, I agree with you that not all watch assemblers intend to “give buyers a mistaken impression”, but I wonder if we could meet at “most” are out to do just that. Here is how I see it… If I show an adult—any normal adult—in New Zealand this rather pretty villa…







                            This adult might say, “That’s one beautifully-renovated home.” or, “There must have been a lot of work put into that—it’s gorgeous!”. Without being told, any adult would understand that this house has had extensive renovation, and given its age, not just external cosmetic, but foundation work done too. No adult would think that this structure stood looking like this unchanged, untouched, all original, rarely-used for the last century or so.

                            Every person who would consider buying this villa would have a fair idea of the extent of work carried out to make it look the way it does.
                            Even if the real estate agent does not mention anything about renovations or restoration, everyone understands this to be the case… How about this Ford Model T?







                            Take any random person from a group of vintage car buyers. Would anyone, for even a moment, think that this Ford has been in use everyday for 90+ years and still looks the way it does? Would they think this is a minty example, well-maintain, single-owner, that is completely original? Or would they immediately understand that this is a professionally-restored specimen, brought back to its original glory as a result of effort, time, and large amounts of money spent on it?

                            Again, if an auction house auctioning this vehicle does not have any information about its restoration, the fact is well-understood by potential bidders. No one buying this car would be disillusioned about the nature of its originality.

                            But what about these three used watches currently auctioning on eBay…











                            If the target audience of these watches are the non-WIS masses that captainscalet1 pointed out, how many of these buyers would 1) know the difference between these refurbished watches with repainted dials, and a mint or NOS specimen? ...2) even when these buyers saw the description “professionally redone dial” or even “new dial”, for how many of them would this have any significance? ...Would it have as much significance to them as “This product contains peanuts.” would have to you if you weren’t allergic to peanuts? ...3) when deciding which vintage watch to buy, how likely would the target group of buyers choose these watches over authentic examples out of ignorance, not choice?

                            Compared to the target buyers of the villa home and Model T Ford above, would you say that the target buyers of these three watches in the West are insufficiently-informed, disadvantaged, and even to an extent, vulnerable? ...Here’s the thing.People who assemble these watches and those who sell or resell them KNOW THIS, but they exploit the vulnerability anyway. They take advantage for their own financial gain anyway.

                            They know that their target buyers will have “a mistaken impression” about the watches, but they do it anyway. It is their intention to exploit by allowing this mistaken impression to occur, knowing full well that it will occur... I will leave it up to you to decide if the word “deceive” would fit the context.

                            I have made a fun image to encapsulate my message for redials…







                            I also wanted to comment specifically on a portion of the quoted comment above, as it's a commonly heard argument...


                            Originally posted by captainscarlet1 View Post
                            ...
                            ...
                            in many instances, there is great merit in keeping a valuable timepiece wearable, and functioning,...

                            This I would partially agree, and only if said valuable is complete in itself, as in the case of someone wanting to refurbish an old watch that is in a complete state. However, this is rarely the case in the current used watch market. Allow me to use an analogy about something that many of us here are interested in—classic car, motorcycle, or even any car over 30 years old. Imagine that you own one of these vehicles, whether or not they are considered a “classic”.

                            One of the issues you constantly face is the availability of parts, because new parts are no longer in production and old stock parts are increasingly hard to find, not to mention costly. An important factor in keeping these cars or bikes going is access to and availability of used parts through specialist wreckers. Say your specialist wrecker has four vehicles like yours in their yard, each are non-running, incomplete, accident write-offs, but have valuable parts that your car needs. These car become donours that enable you to keep yours running and road-worthy, and that is their value and their role in the scheme of things.

                            Some wrecker may choose to dismantle these donour cars, and keep their salvageable parts…







                            It’s the value that they add to the industry and their role in the scheme of things. Now, imagine if your specialist wrecker decided they didn’t want to do this anymore. Instead, they want to put together complete cars to be sold, and it’s not just putting all the usable parts from four cars to make one—it is making each of the four into separate cars using whatever they can find to replace missing or damaged parts. These become ugly put-togethers that contain only a portion of authentic parts.

                            What about if they don’t have any cars anymore, but put together salvaged parts from many different cars to make a few functioning ones? How would you feel about this? ...It would be ridiculous, right? But this is what is happening in the refurbish watch industry today.

                            When you have incomplete, dead watches, they can still be valuable—but valuable as spare parts for other watches. My watchmaker here in Auckland has a whole wall of old movements and movement parts, meticulously classified and grouped. He has boxes of old case, and containers of old dials, hands, crowns, even bracelets. Yet, he doesn’t sit there and put together parts to make functioning timepiece—he’s not stupid, but that’s just not his role in the scheme of things.

                            Both Mary Shelley’s “Frankenstein” and Stephen King’s “Pet Sematary” carried a similar message, one in which the used watch industry should listen to—some dead things should really be left dead.


                            Now let’s talk about something unrelated, Type 2 Diabetes… I’m fortunate not to have this disease, but I have a close friend who does. I do not judge him for suffering from this illness, nor do I judge other sufferers of Type 2 Diabetes, even if, for some, their past lifestyle contributed to acquiring it. I do not think of them as bad people.

                            As a society, we can openly discuss Type 2 Diabetes, and importantly ways to avoid getting it if you are not currently a sufferer. Such discussions on early prevention and what-not-to-do are encouraged in society—Diabetics don’t feel judged, nor are they offended by society pushing the message of prevention. Most diabetics don’t want others to have Type 2 Diabetes, and many engage in actively advising others of prevention. With this disease, if you have it, we don’t judge you, but if you don’t have it yet, we encourage you to avoid getting it.

                            Replace the words “Type 2 Diabetes” above with “Refurbished Watch”.

                            Why is it so hard with redone watches? Why do people on some forums get defensive and touchy about these cobble-ups (according to Alex, watches not even intended for them)? Why do the rest who don’t own refurbished watches tend to shrink away from the discussion in fear of offending those that do? Is it our value as a community to stay silent about such things?
                            Last edited by Don; 07-03-18, 16:32.
                            A watch journey that also serves the betterment of others is one worth taking.

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                            • captainscarlet1
                              captainscarlet1 commented
                              Editing a comment
                              I think I like the "after" Mona Lisa best lol

                          • #60
                            Too long for me right now (in work) - will digest at leisure later.

                            For the golf ball question the only 2 statements we can rely on to be true are that the seller has a ball and it is indeed painted white (the only way to find out if it is indeed yellow beneath is to purchase the ball and go get your turps, at which point it is too late).
                            If I think of something witty, I'll be sure to write it here.

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