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  • Have some fun with this multi choice poll

    Multi Choice Poll - choose from:

    'Buyers don't really read or trust Q & A' and/or

    'Buyers just don't really care about authenticity' and/or


    'I don't even bother about Q & A now it is hidden on a separate page'


    ================================================== =============



    Item Name: Seiko 6139-6002 Pogue
    Item Number:
    1594324446
    Seller ID: 79legs
    Feedback: 247 / 0 / 0
    Link:
    https://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=1594324446


    Seller Description:


    This is a nice example of the iconic 'Pogue' which dates to March 1974.

    It appears to be in original condition. The bracelet is aftermarket but a very nicely finished one identical to the original. I bought this watch recently from the States where it had supposedly been sat in a drawer for years and I was going to get it serviced and keep it but have since decided to reduce my watch collection hence this is now being sold as is.

    It keeps excellent time to within 10 seconds per day. The day and date functionality works as it should and the Chrono snaps back to zero perfectly. The case appears to have never been polished which is a very rare find thesedays. The corners are sharp with the right blend of polished and grained finishes making this a very attractive watch. I've tried to catch this in the photos.

    However it does need a service as the chrono seconds hand keeps sticking. It does unstick itself with a little tap but clearly it needs a service. As you may know, the watch can function and keep time without the Chrono going so you might want to fix it or just leave it as is. Also the inner bezel doesn't rotate though appears to be in excellent condition.

    Starting with a dollar reserve as I don't know where to pitch the price due to it needing a service so will let the market decide. Questions welcome.

    Thanks
    - 79legs


    Notes: WIS have an obligation not to knowingly misrepresent watches to other WIS & the non-learned. Seller had discrepancies pointed out & chose to ignore the information. A nice POGUE should have a nice original dial, the dial being the most important part of an original SEIKO. The dial on this watch is aftermarket i.e. non-original as proven by the comparo provide by dontia.

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    Still... if thewatcher007 wins the listing (above), it is still possibly a step up from their purchase last month (below).



    Item Name: Omega Watch #B1544411-1
    Item Number: 1566863084
    Seller ID:
    cctauranga
    Feedback: 7671 / 80 / 57
    Link:
    https://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=1566863084&archive=1

    Seller Description:

    Omega Watch
    Speedmaster Aqua Terra
    Unsure of Authenticity
    Co-Axeial Escapement
    Case 38.8mm
    Face 32.8mm

    A Omega Watch that needs a bit of work to bring it back to life
    will need a new strap and a small hand to be put back, as it in the watch face as pictured.
    Still in working order great looking watch that just needs a bit of love to bring it back to life.
    - cashconverters Tauranga


    Notes: Obvious fake, CCTauranga should be capable of identifying it as an obvious fake, CCTauranga should know it is illegal to sell a fake Omega in New Zeland, CCTauranga should know it's against the sales platforms rules to list fake Omega watches.


    Click image for larger version  Name:	thewatcher007.5.png Views:	1 Size:	568.4 KB ID:	41136
    10
    'Buyers don't really read or trust Q & A'
    50.00%
    5
    'Buyers just don't really care about authenticity'
    70.00%
    7
    I don't even bother about Q & A now it is hidden on a separate page'
    30.00%
    3
    Harlan
    Timekeeper Watch Club
    Auckland, New Zealand, Pacific Ocean, Earth

  • #2
    I voted 'B' but its not entirely true. while the vast majority of the population don't care, it's only because they don't understand the intrinsic worth of originality. this is the same for all areas of collecting, how many folks have an old thing around their house that they "fixed up"? show your series 1 landy with its improved interior and watch the collectors wince at the thought of swapped out cushions and installed heaters. the lamp Z painted up last weekend from its dowdy old faded brown to lovely blues. or worst of all, those Ponsonby mother f"{:}"{ who take a piece of 200yr old oak or beech and paint it distressed green and punt it for 10x what they bought it for. it matters not one jot to the casual purchaser. the problem is when the seller is an out and out teller of tales with the "I'm sure its all original" line.
    as Darlington quipped a cynic was 'a man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.' while the standard TM buyer can't be called a cynic they certainly know only the price. maybe we as fans/collectors fall into the range of the reply from Cecil Graham: And a sentimentalist, my dear Darlington, is a man who sees an absurd value in everything and doesn’t know the market price of any single thing.”

    a bit tangential but you get the gist.
    Last edited by deerworrier; 14-04-18, 15:54.
    “Strong people are harder to kill than weak people and more useful in general.”


    Despite having the numbers, there is the crazy man in the mountains that none of the tribes will go near!
    Always aim to be that man.

    Comment


    • #3
      thats some funny shite "hanlan"
      'why tip toe thru life ,only to arrive safely at death'

      Comment


      • #4
        What he said.


        I did a bit of research on these pogues, and I'm wondering what the score is.

        These gold pogues can come with a T code and a R code dial? Slight variations in font, colour and spacing?

        Black inner bezel is some kind of Aussie (Oceania) thing?

        I'm pretty new to Seikoness so I would love some clarification........
        Preparation and planning prevent piss poor performance

        Comment


        • Don
          Don commented
          Editing a comment
          Alex, that’s correct, the gold-dial version exists in both R and T dial codes, though as far as I know, the exact meaning and implication is yet to be fully understood. Case Reference 6139-6002 exists with a few variant on the dial text, though it is more to do with what the text says rather than their fonts or quality. The -6002 was in production for nearly a decade, so changes are expected. However, there is still a clear enough line between authentic original and aftermarket reproduction to authenticate them… Re Black internal rotating ring, there has never been proof of it being factory original, i.e. no vintage catalogue we know of ever featured one on a gold-dial. Some argue they were retro-fitted by Seiko service centres to replace original ones, thus have a degree of authenticity because it was Seiko-approved (?), but I don’t define authenticity with such a wide brush stroke. Generally, I’d warn people to stay away from “claimed-original” gold-dial with black chapter rings... As an aside, 6139-6002 “Pogue” are among the most common vintage Seiko Chronographs with huge production numbers and sold worldwide—they are not “rare” by any definition.

        • captainscarlet1
          captainscarlet1 commented
          Editing a comment
          Thanks for that Don I suppose I was trying to find a reason why no one seemed to be bothered about your, and H's observations. The fact that you can read up on various forums about these watches, some of it true, and also not so true, the definitive line of truth can be blurred somewhat. Even without your comments on the auction, after research there was too much doubt about it's authenticity for someone "sane" to make an informed decision.

      • #5
        haha, yeah just noticed this, typical eh.

        What I will say is this, this seller is allowed to 'have a close look' and states 'definitely original' but when we, as people who have handled, owned & repaired & serviced dozens of POGUES kindly provide images proving the dial & so on is fake & we're (I'm) labelled hanlan the 'expert' by legs79?

        It is a real shame, that this sort of carry-on is seemingly now acceptable.... it is very off-putting imo.... puts me off the platform & obviously it puts me off the seller especially & it also tries to put me off watches pretty much.

        Originally posted by shandy View Post
        thats some funny shite "hanlan"
        Harlan
        Timekeeper Watch Club
        Auckland, New Zealand, Pacific Ocean, Earth

        Comment


        • #6
          This thread reminds me of two things, which are trivial considering the ongoing effort some gentlemen here put in to balancing the inequities of TradeMe:

          1. I miss Cpt. Corriera/Korea (spelling?). Who, at the time, I half suspected was an undercover TKNZer using TradeMe as a means of entertaining us. Those Q & As were worth a read.

          2. An esteemed watchmaker at Precision Watch Company told me that when 6139s were new to the market and he was working for Seiko, he remembers what are now known as Pogues being returned for replacement dials. Apparently blue dials were more popular than yellow at the time. How things have changed!

          As Deerworrier says, tangential.

          Comment


          • #7
            Harlan, thank you for starting this topic for some here who may have missed the auction.


            Originally posted by deerworrier View Post
            ...while the vast majority of the population don't care, it's only because they don't understand the intrinsic worth of originality. this is the same for all areas of collecting, how many folks have an old thing around their house that they "fixed up"? show your series 1 landy with its improved interior and watch the collectors wince at the thought of swapped out cushions and installed heaters. the lamp Z painted up last weekend from its dowdy old faded brown to lovely blues. or worst of all, those Ponsonby mother f"{:}"{ who take a piece of 200yr old oak or beech and paint it distressed green and punt it for 10x what they bought it for. it matters not one jot to the casual purchaser. the problem is when the seller is an out and out teller of tales with the "I'm sure its all original" line.
            as Darlington quipped a cynic was 'a man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.' while the standard TM buyer can't be called a cynic they certainly know only the price. maybe we as fans/collectors fall into the range of the reply from Cecil Graham: And a sentimentalist, my dear Darlington, is a man who sees an absurd value in everything and doesn’t know the market price of any single thing.”

            a bit tangential but you get the gist.

            Excellent argument, DW Some of your points really got me thinking...

            First on the tangential, it makes one wonder whether the market price of a vintage watch is purely the result of the forces of supply & demand. Here, the supply of original watches slowly in decline due to age, and future demand being totally unpredictable because future popularity and market’s spending power is near-impossible to predict. Or, whether the market price of a vintage rests on more fundamental factors relating to the reasons for the current price, which can be a little more comforting to collectors of anything, because it gives us a sense of understanding of how future prices may be—even if ultimately we may be proven wrong. Perhaps both factors play a part?

            The second is less of a tangent, and seem to revolve around “collector” and “casual seller”. In my view, when we claim to be something, we imply our right to act a certain way, but inevitably in doing so, we accept certain responsibility that comes with being that thing. Examples are if one were to say one is a doctor, lawyer, engineer, or accountant. Claiming to be a watch collector, watch enthusiast, WIS, or expert can make what we state more credible, but it also subjects us to responsibility because that's what comes with power of knowledge.

            It then follows that claiming one “doesn’t know much about watches”, “is not an expert”, or “is not a collector”, seemingly gives one the right to deny any and all responsibilities. I’m not an expert” is a refusal to be held accountable—or at least that’s what many believe. A decade or two ago, used watch buyers might not warm to the “casual seller”, but now, buyers can themselves become “instant expert” through Google. I have even seen some very knowledgeable watch enthusiasts use the “I’m not an expert” to get rid of a vintage purchase mistakes

            But here’s the thing: we are how we act, not what we say we are… Even if a fraudster tries to maintain his innocence, the law can still find him guilty when his action is deemed fraudulent.

            The OP, Harlan, lists watches for sale and I have never seen him once stating “I am a watch expert”, but his conduct (item description, photos, awareness of value and market price) makes him one. This means he receives the benefit of higher credibility as a result of his perceived expertise, but it also means that he fully accepts the responsibility that comes with that benefit. If you pay a slightly higher price for Harlan’s watch, a part of what you buy is this hefty accountability on his part, for which, if redeemed, would cost him far more than that little bit extra he asked. IMO, when a casual seller lists a watch with description and photos that demonstrates an awareness of what traits collectors would look for in such a watch and an awareness of collector’s value or market price, his action is that of a collector.

            In showing his awareness of collector’s or intrinsic value of the watch and its value to the market, he is reaping the benefit of possessing expertise—whether or not he professes it—and must also accept accountability that comes with that benefit. A watch expert, watch geek, or call it what you will, is not a formal qualification nor require certification. If your conduct is like one, you are one, and have the full responsibility as one. To offer a watch to the market based on its intrinsic value forfeits one’s right to innocence through ignorance... You cannot have it both ways.
            Last edited by Don; 15-04-18, 12:19.
            A watch journey that also serves the betterment of others is one worth taking.

            Comment


            • #8
              Hi Guys,

              Just wanted to post my view as the purchaser of this watch. I was certainly aware of this post and the questions regarding the authenticity of the 6139.

              I was however very confident I knew what I was getting and still feel that way. This is also supported by others with the same variant I have utilised for reference.

              I've been looking into the "Aussie" Pogues for a while and this matches most other known examples I have seen. Im also well aware there are those that speculate these don't exist.

              Anyway whats not shown in the photos well is the patina on the dial and hands and correponding scratches and dings to the case and bezel insert etc all often seen on original but seldom worn watches.
              Last edited by pando; 17-04-18, 21:34.

              Comment


              • kiwi.bloke
                kiwi.bloke commented
                Editing a comment
                I’d be interested in a close up of the dial on yours. One of my 6139-6002 is exactly the same as the dial on this from the look of it. Was watching this auction and wondered how the comments may have effected the final price.

            • #9
              ha! there is also the importance if reading threads in full, until I read the above and scrolled to the top I thought we were commenting on the cash converters Omega
              the end of thread button is to blame.
              “Strong people are harder to kill than weak people and more useful in general.”


              Despite having the numbers, there is the crazy man in the mountains that none of the tribes will go near!
              Always aim to be that man.

              Comment

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