A Lot Less than "5" ...Franken-Seiko

[Don]

I guess a lot can change in 18 months, and this applies to the darker side of the watch world. It has been around a year and a half since I posted Beware, be Aware: Vintage Seiko Citizen (https://www.timekeeper.co.nz/forum/w...-seiko-citizen). So, if you missed it then, or are new to the TKNZ, there's no better time to catch up on the discussion. The industrious watch repairers in India have improved their creation in terms of fitting the watches together, as well as now having access to better case-back stamping tools they previously lacked.

One TradeMe seller is seemingly having a good run at the moment reselling these things. At least one has been sold this month--I missed the auction while it was still live, but found it through the seller's TM feedback. Here is the completed (sold) listing...

Item Name: vintage as new Seiko 5 Mickey Mouse Automatic Day Date Watch 17 jewels
Item Number: 1660616901
Seller ID: solamax
Feedback: 293 (99%)
Link: https://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Lis...?id=1660616901











The seller, solamax, is currently auctioning another. This is still active.

Item Name: Seiko 5 gold plated case and strap with gold face and hour markers
Item Number: 1677884916
Seller ID: solamax
Feedback: 293 (99%)
Link: https://www.trademe.co.nz/jewellery-...461d595b2d7596











Note the serial number on both watches.

For comparison, here is an image of a genuine Seiko 5 Cal 6309 from the same production year as the above watch claims to be from...





What are you views on these two watches, and in what aspects would you say they are incorrect?

[Horos]

The poor engraving on the backs is enough of a give away.

[cyma]

My own opinion is that you would have to be an idiot if you thought these were genuine, as horos says the very poor engraving, and HKP on bracelet,haha hong kong plated, yer right.

[Horos]

I have kicked it off with a question, how about a few others start some harassment.

[Don]

Thank you for taking the time to respond, Horos and cyma. The quality of the case back inscription is certainly a giveaway, not to mention they both watches have the exact same serial numbers. I expect to be seeing, unfortunately, a lot more of these "201547" Franken-case backs... Pete, I didn't spot the "HKP"

I'd like to further add to both of your observations with some comments on the dial, and these apply to both the sold "Mickey Mouse" and the fake Seiko 5 currently running. However, I'll use the seller's image for the sold listing, as they are clearer. There are two issues that I'd like to point out, and both relate to the dial script. Other watch photos in this post are mine, so am certain of their authenticity.

The first aspect is the "SEIKO AUTOMATIC" script...





...which I will let you compare for yourself with two other Seiko scripts from watches manufactured in the same year (1982) as the "Seiko" from solamax. The first is also from a 1982 Seiko Automatic Cal 6309, while the second is from a 1982 Quartz Chronograph 7A28.







Next, we look at the dial script at 6 o'clock position, i.e. the "JAPAN MADE".





The dial scrip at 6 o'clock is the one we are familiar when we want to quickly assess the origin of a watch. For Swiss watch manufacturers, we often either "SWISS" or "SWISS MADE"...







Current Chinese Manufactures carry either 'MADE IN CHINA" or "CHINA MADE"...







Russian watches produced for their domestic market can have the Cyrillic script "сделано в россии" (Made in Russia), like those on Vostoks for the Russian market, while export models might carry the same, but in English...







This English-made Smith Astral Cal. 36 from the 1960s is equipped with the last of Smith's own in-house movement, the last vestige of the British watch industry that ended in 1970. It is inscribed "MADE IN ENGLAND"...





What about Seiko? ...In the early-1960s while Japan was in the midst of an economic and social change, Seiko did for a short time use "JAPAN MADE", such as seen here on a Seikomatic Cal 603 from 1961. Though hard to see from this photo, it is certainly there...





By the mid-1960s, however, only the word "JAPAN" remained, accompanied by the dial code, starting with the calibre number. This continued on to the present day on many Seiko, and this includes the early-1980s (when Feiko Mickey Mouse is supposed to have been made). Here is a Seiko with Cal 6309 from 1981...





From mid-1980s onward, some Automatic 6309 watches also sported "MADE IN JAPAN", but never "JAPAN MADE". This practice carried on in later entry-level Seiko Automatics, including entry-level Seiko divers (7002, 7S26, and 4R36) and Seiko 5s.





So many counterfeit vintage Seiko originating from India now are signed "JAPAN MADE", so for now, this is a giveaway. Sadly, these watches are inundating the global vintage watch market, with no one to put a stop to them ...They are very easy to find if you just go to eBay and search for ["Seiko 5" 6309] ...without the brackets.

[NINCA]

your knowledge is incredible .. and your analysis is appreciated! - thanks for sharing

[Don]

Thank you, NINCA. I'm glad it is of benefit.

[Scouser]

Awesome Don, big thanks for sharing, although i only collect Russian watches i will keep a look out for my friends....theres plenty of fake Russian watches out there too, believe me

[pedro44]

An interesting exercise for you all to try.
Go on eBay and search Seiko.
Select used, free shipping, an max price say $50.

You will be surprised how many of these things are coming out of India.

Sent from my VFD 710 using Tapatalk

[pedro44]

Back of Fraken monster from ebay.
Stamping ain't half obvious