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  • BUYER BEWARE tm2616787372

    There was a good replica rolex a few months back it had german paper work with it

    also sellers negative feed back
    also no pickup and no refund this maybe ok but beware!!!!!!!!
    Click image for larger version  Name:	1319502045.jpg Views:	8 Size:	88.3 KB ID:	58141




    https://www.trademe.co.nz/jewellery-...4b0519053a-002

    Watch unworn gift
    Interested bids / not interested don’t bids
    No original paper work or receipt or card ( just watch with box)
    From gift 4-5 Years ago...
    95% new please check photos for more details
    Happy bids (No refund )
    Last edited by myonlyrolex; 08-05-20, 19:28.

  • #2
    they even give you a close up of the hand stack
    someones not going to be happy when it comes to servicing!!
    and i know they went to random serial no. in 2011 but i don't think they use letters at the start any more? may be wrong but Z denotes mid 1980s.
    also says "no original paperwork or receipt" then shows picture with paperwork and receipt?
    Last edited by deerworrier; 08-05-20, 16:47.
    “Strong people are harder to kill than weak people and more useful in general.”


    Despite having the numbers, there is the crazy man in the mountains that none of the tribes will go near!
    Always aim to be that man.

    Comment


    • #3
      As above. plus I don’t like the engraving on the inner ring. Not crisp and not centred.
      Preparation and planning prevent piss poor performance

      Comment


      • #4
        GMT hand – On a genuine Rolex, the green or blue etc GMT hand is sandwiched between the hour and the minute hand. The GMT hand on a fake Rolex often sits close to the dial and is NOT sandwiched between the hour/minute hands. This is not a simple oversight by the counterfeiters, but caused by specific constraints on the counterfeit movement they use. I think looking at picture 2/13 the GMT hand is close to dial eg first. Might just be my eyesight.. Also agree engraving of model number very rough and in larger font see picture of Real GMT II

        After the game, the King and the pawn go into the same box

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Brooke View Post
          GMT hand – On a genuine Rolex, the green or blue etc GMT hand is sandwiched between the hour and the minute hand. The GMT hand on a fake Rolex often sits close to the dial and is NOT sandwiched between the hour/minute hands. This is not a simple oversight by the counterfeiters, but caused by specific constraints on the counterfeit movement they use. I think looking at picture 2/13 the GMT hand is close to dial eg first. Might just be my eyesight.. Also agree engraving of model number very rough and in larger font see picture of Real GMT II
          Welcome to Timekeeper, Brooke ...You certainly seem to be a devotee of watches.

          Yes, that's what deerworrier was referring to before about the "hand stack", meaning that a RSC would take one look at the incorrectly stacked hands and refuse service. You explained it in a more precise manner, of course.
          On the instruments we entrust to pace our lives, to bear witness to our days, and to be the keepers of the most precious thing we have... time.

          Comment


          • #6
            Already some good spotting from other members above, and TradeMe has pulled it, so hopefully buyers were kept safe. Yes, a genuine GMT-Master II 116710 would have hands stacked in the order Brooke described, and for the reason he described. The functional GMT hand on the better counterfeits are modified additions to regular 3-hander movement, e.g. an ETA 2836 clone.

            captainscarlet1 also pointed out the rough engravings on the rehaut--genuine should be centered and crisp.

            I'll add that the dial script on the TM one lacks sharpness, and the bezel insert looks aluminum, lacking the sheen of the genuine's ceramic bezel. Here are some photos, borrowed off the Internet, showing the correct hand stack, crisp centred rehaut, and ceramic bezel.





            Here's the correct hand stack...








            The problem with online auction listings is that they rarely ever how this close up a shot from different angles.

            On the instruments we entrust to pace our lives, to bear witness to our days, and to be the keepers of the most precious thing we have... time.

            Comment


            • #7
              Sort of get the feeling lately someone cottoned on to the useful work being done all the time by myonlyrolex: i.e. pointing out fakes be they useless or clever.

              Was this the seller, cannot quite read the watermark?

              Click image for larger version

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              Harlan
              Timekeeper Watch Club
              New Zealand, Pacific Ocean, Earth

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              • #8
                I was waiting to see whether anyone calls me out, but since none yet, I’ll continue...

                As some here may know, I frequently get asked in private to help authenticate used watches sold online. Part of the tool kit to authenticate watches is knowing the authenticity issues related to each watch—different watches have different path ways to being and to becoming inauthentic. In short, you have to know what you’re up against, and any knowledge relating to attempts of deception is fluid in nature, often changes quickly over time. As part of information-gathering, I’ve been lurking on replica watch forums—there’s a few of them online—yep, you read correctly.

                Initially, the objective was intel-gathering, a kind of know-your-enemy. But what I found out there was that, contrary to what many of us in the socially- and legally-sanctioned watch world believe, there is no “enemy”…I witnessed enthusiasm, passion, helpfulness, and a lack of BS or pretense—everyone’s watches were fakes anyway. Many members are very clued up on the inner workings of the modern watch production supply chain, something usually kept hidden, black-boxed, from the mainstream WIS.

                From replica factories and their immediate dealers, I witnessed honesty, commitment, pride of service, and a responsiveness to customers’ needs that the mainstream legit watch world would envy. Not everything is perfect—this is the real world after all—and there are good and bad, but those are the good that I saw. No, I would still never contemplate purchasing nor owning a replica watch, but if there were to be “enemies” out there, they’re not those in replica watch communities, nor the replica watch industry. They are the enemies we already sleep with.

                Thought I’d share these following aspects, in relations to authenticating current Rolex models—that I’ve learned thus far.

                Lesson 1

                I’ve learned that those so-called “guides” to identifying genuine/fake Rolex that we see here and there on the web, and heaps on YouTube (they are proven click-baits, so why not, I guess) are not written nor presented by people in the replica watch industry nor replica watch communities. They are cobbled-up together second-hand knowledge, usually regurgitated from other sources the writer/presenter has read or seen. These can be compared to articles you find in lifestyle magazines with titles like “Top 10 Watches that Real Watch Collectors Respect” (you just know they’re not written by any of us.)

                While there is definitely certain usefulness in these types of Real-vs-Fake, it more often gives people—especially those new to watches—a false sense of confidence that they now know how to “tell the difference” or “spot the fake”. Those seeking to deceive and con buyers into buying a counterfeit actually love these kinds of pseudo-informedness (new word?). All they need to do is to find a counterfeit watch that passes all the known tests… But hang on! There are no fakes that pass all the test! ...and that, my fellow Timekeepers, is the devil’s greatest trick.

                Lesson 2

                I mentioned before that the top replica manufacturers are super responsive to the feedback of their buyers. Genuine watches, for instance Rolex, might make minor changes to increase the difficulty in replicating, at most, once every few years. Rep factories, on the other hand, are much more agile, and can make changes within 4-6 months, and—hear this—they listen to the rep community and they take note when the rep community points out things that keep the replica from looking like the real deal. Try getting that kind of relationship with your favourite watch brand!

                Tie this in to #1 above, and you can see how an article on Real-vs-Fake will still be read, referenced, and relied upon for years after being authored. The content are usually severely out-of-date. Same thing for YouTube uploads that will still be watched and followed years on after, despite little of the content still being valid.

                Lesson 3

                Most watch people in the legit world overestimate and over-credit the ability of the (up to now) Swiss brands for the whole complete product in their hands. All the while, people underestimate and under-credit the ability of the production supply chain—outside of Switzerland—that led to the complete product. Picture an orchestra where the conductor stands at the podium, back to the concert audience, but stage curtain is drawn closed, hiding the orchestra from the audience’s view.





                The sound played is full and wonderful, with melody astoundingly beautiful and complex… At the end of piece, the conductor turns to the audience—they applaud, cheered, standing ovation, and critics shower the performance with praise. He takes a bow, takes the applause, the cheering, and the accolade—as his own. He alone takes the credit, and he alone takes the proceeds of the concert.





                If a scenario like this keeps repeating, over decades, it would be natural for concert audiences to overestimate and over-credit the conductor. Further more, because the musician are hidden behind the posh velvet curtain, audiences underestimate and under-credit those musicians. This may sound outrageous, but in real life, this is essentially what the mainstream Swiss watch industry, along with the boutique and micro-brands of this past decade, has been up to.

                A case in point would be if I were to ask you—all watch lovers who have no doubt read and seen a lot about watches—a simple question…

                “Name the largest watch component manufacturer in China.”




                Anyone know?


                Is it Seagull or Shanghai? ...Nope. Seagull is currently the world’s largest manufacturer of mechanical movements, but they are not the largest watch parts factory in China. According to research author Pierre-Yves Donze, in 2005, Tianjin Seagull Watch employed 1,053 people, and had an annual turnover of 133.6 million Yuan. In the same year, the largest watch component manufacturer in China had 1,627 employees, and a turnover of 546.7 million Yuan, or four times that of Seagull.

                That’s impressive! You would think that whoever owns such a production facility would be proudly advertising it everywhere, right? ...Does anyone here know yet? ...Alright, I’ll tell you.

                The largest watch component manufacturer in China is Zhuhai New Pearl Watchmaking Co. Ltd… Cool! Now you know ...But why did we—seasoned watch collectors—not know nor have heard of this name? ...You can hardly even find information online about this manufacturer. Why?

                It is because they are behind a closed curtain.


                Zhuhai New Pearl Watchmaking Co. Ltd is a wholly-owned subsidiary of The Swatch Group. The largest watch component manufacturer in China is the Swatch Group.

                Here’s a recommended read for anyone interested in looking behind said curtain… https://www.amazon.com/Business-Hist.../dp/1137389060

                Of course, in matters of relevance to this thread, the fact that the audience might over-credit the conductor is mild compared to the fact that those audience will underestimate, and oblivious to, the capability of the orchestral musicians, hidden behind the curtain.





                In the watch production supply chain, the "musicians” in China are often thought of as being incapable, lacking quality, cheap and nasty. How many potential buyers on TradeMe think like this, I wonder. When it comes to recent or current model Rolex, I do wonder even more about the kinds of people whom TM buyers might rely on to authenticate these watches. Especially given Rolex’s insistence for their customers to use RSC only, how many people outside of a hand-full of trained watchmakers at RSC, established repair centers like Precision, actually have hands-on experience with current Rolex calibers.

                Would you be able to tell if a TradeMe seller posts these picture of the case back open, showing a replica movement inside a rep watch?









                Confronted with the movement below, do you think every brick & mortar jewelers outside major centres—e.g. Bonnie Clyde & Son Family Jewelers—who are all very eager to offer insurance valuation service, would all be able to tell?





                Are you yourself able to tell which of these two movements is the genuine Rolex?





                Do you know that some of the above are 1:1 Rolex clone movements, which will “take” genuine movement component parts? No, they are not a myth. More over, do you know that it is not uncommon today for people who mod these clones to buy genuine Rolex top movement plate (where you see the décor and stamped signing), genuine Rolex rotor, and simply replace the parts that look a little rough on the counterfeits?

                Makes you wonder.
                Last edited by Don; 10-05-20, 08:43.
                On the instruments we entrust to pace our lives, to bear witness to our days, and to be the keepers of the most precious thing we have... time.

                Comment


                • #9
                  And oh… I forgot one more. This is not a Rolex clone movement—it was modified from an ETA clone. However, it has faux-Rolex design, and is a genuine 4-hand GMT movement for GMT-Master II copies.





                  Its setting functionality is exactly like a genuine GMT-Master II, so you cannot tell from the crown adjustments. Oh, and the 4 hands are stacked correctly. Movements like this one will sit inside a 904L stainless steel case with ceramic bezel and sapphire crystal. It will set its buyer back around NZ$800, so not the crappy fake someone picked up from Bali.

                  This movement is found in this watch that I didn't say was real …a counterfeit 126710 BLNR.


                  Originally posted by Don View Post







                  On the instruments we entrust to pace our lives, to bear witness to our days, and to be the keepers of the most precious thing we have... time.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hi i have to admit im certainly not clued up on rolex movements and how the seconds hand should be placed etc i have more off a gut feeling and off course some tell tale signs,that if
                    you have been around rolex watches long enough you know straight away they are fake.Sure there are some fakes being produced now i would have no idea and even if they were opened up
                    i would still not be sure as im not a watch maker.
                    Re this posting what i spotted were 3 things 1 the price 2 the price receipt from germany and also the added comment no paperwork or box included yet the photo displayed box and paperwork.
                    The main thing on this listing that made me suspicious was the receipt from germany, another good fake was listed on tm a few months back and it had german paperwork with it and what i have
                    been told is the watch sold, and it was only after the watch was opened by watchmaker that due to how well it had been manufactured that it was a fake.
                    https://www.trademe.co.nz/jewellery-....htm?archive=1


                    https://www.trademe.co.nz/jewellery-...0492569442-001

                    Comment


                    • harlansmart
                      harlansmart commented
                      Editing a comment
                      You are basically single handedly pointing out the majority of the fakes/rip off's, wonder just how many people you have saved w/your efforts.

                      Tad ungrateful of all the potential buyers/victims that they don't jump on here & personally thank you.

                    • Artemis12
                      Artemis12 commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Great spotting myonlyrolex!!! You definitely made the difference between joy and disbelief!!! Great work

                  • #11
                    Nuts, lol, as I scrolled down I recall glancing for a moment at the watch you'd used, and thinking 'shitty looking pix to use as an example' there Don!

                    Seriously good post(s) Sir... imagine the heartache that could be saved if a few of the hopefuls bother to read it.

                    Originally posted by Don View Post
                    I was waiting to see whether anyone calls me out, but since none yet, I’ll continue...
                    ----------------

                    Q: Are you yourself able to tell which of these two movements is the genuine Rolex?

                    A: Think so, the top one is missing a few components, will stick an X through it lol

                    Click image for larger version  Name:	14.jpg Views:	0 Size:	137.1 KB ID:	58231


                    This one could be another test, bottom right looks ok to my untrained eye.

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                    Harlan
                    Timekeeper Watch Club
                    New Zealand, Pacific Ocean, Earth

                    Comment


                    • #12
                      myonlyrolex

                      It is a pity we can't see the feedback etc for the Sub, wonder if the buyer lost his money... really don't like the way they do this... basically hide the situation under the rug.

                      Click image for larger version

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                      Harlan
                      Timekeeper Watch Club
                      New Zealand, Pacific Ocean, Earth

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                      • #13
                        These are very very good mate

                        Lesson 1

                        I’ve learned that those so-called “guides” to identifying genuine/fake Rolex that we see here and there on the web, and heaps on YouTube (they are proven click-baits, so why not, I guess) are not written nor presented by people in the replica watch industry nor replica watch communities. They are cobbled-up together second-hand knowledge, usually regurgitated from other sources the writer/presenter has read or seen. These can be compared to articles you find in lifestyle magazines with titles like “Top 10 Watches that Real Watch Collectors Respect” (you just know they’re not written by any of us.)

                        While there is definitely certain usefulness in these types of Real-vs-Fake, it more often gives people—especially those new to watches—a false sense of confidence that they now know how to “tell the difference” or “spot the fake”. Those seeking to deceive and con buyers into buying a counterfeit actually love these kinds of pseudo-informedness (new word?). All they need to do is to find a counterfeit watch that passes all the known tests… But hang on! There are no fakes that pass all the test! ...and that, my fellow Timekeepers, is the devil’s greatest trick.

                        Lesson 2

                        I mentioned before that the top replica manufacturers are super responsive to the feedback of their buyers. Genuine watches, for instance Rolex, might make minor changes to increase the difficulty in replicating, at most, once every few years. Rep factories, on the other hand, are much more agile, and can make changes within 4-6 months, and—hear this—they listen to the rep community and they take note when the rep community points out things that keep the replica from looking like the real deal. Try getting that kind of relationship with your favourite watch brand!

                        Tie this in to #1 above, and you can see how an article on Real-vs-Fake will still be read, referenced, and relied upon for years after being authored. The content are usually severely out-of-date. Same thing for YouTube uploads that will still be watched and followed years on after, despite little of the content still being valid.

                        Lesson 3

                        Most watch people in the legit world overestimate and over-credit the ability of the (up to now) Swiss brands for the whole complete product in their hands. All the while, people underestimate and under-credit the ability of the production supply chain—outside of Switzerland—that led to the complete product. Picture an orchestra where the conductor stands at the podium, back to the concert audience, but stage curtain is drawn closed, hiding the orchestra from the audience’s view.
                        Harlan
                        Timekeeper Watch Club
                        New Zealand, Pacific Ocean, Earth

                        Comment


                        • #14
                          Originally posted by myonlyrolex View Post
                          Hi i have to admit im certainly not clued up on rolex movements and how the seconds hand should be placed etc i have more off a gut feeling and off course some tell tale signs,that if
                          you have been around rolex watches long enough you know straight away they are fake.Sure there are some fakes being produced now i would have no idea and even if they were opened up
                          i would still not be sure as im not a watch maker.
                          Re this posting what i spotted were 3 things 1 the price 2 the price receipt from germany and also the added comment no paperwork or box included yet the photo displayed box and paperwork...
                          [/URL]
                          Yes, I join Harlan in expressing our thanks for your frequent additions to the Watch Out sub-forum. I know that I have not always had chance to comment on your new topics, but mostly because I feel they were already clear-cut. With regards to Real-vs-Fake, I actually wanted to do a long post on this since this thread from late last year ( https://www.timekeeper.co.nz/forum/w...ery-good-fakes ), but didn’t get around to it, so have used this opportunity to do just that.

                          Please don’t take it as a criticism directed at you, the OP, but rather see it as a criticism on the apparent popularity of Real-vs-Fake. Such types of articles and YouTube videos have been super-popular because they provide a kind of short-cut for newcomers and those not so new but who are a little behind on such matters to get up to speed in a short amount to time. We love expedience over actual hard work. I’m also more concerned now than ever before because of the rapidness of change that occur in the replica watch industry, brought by technology and efficiency, along with widespread myth about what a fake watch should look or feel like.

                          I still help folks authenticate watches being sold online, but in the last couple of years, I no longer assist in validating recent (within the last decade) or current Rolex, especially Submariners. Most of the time, I can tell people if a specimen is a counterfeit based purely on photos, but I can no longer be certain whether a particular example is authentic. And really, the latter is what people want to know… I also cast doubt on the majority of non-Rolex AD jewelers, insurance valuers, watch repairers who limited exposure to newer Rolex watches, and pawnbrokers, about whether they are actually capable of providing authentication service.

                          What would fool a watchmaker? ...I have the utmost respect for them and their skill, but picture this scenario. A recent model "Rolex" is taken to be authenticated by a watchmaker. It looks and feel very well made, the right weight, and the dial, hands, rehaut, ceramic bezel seems all very good...but just something about the watch that makes this watchmaker unsure—he needs a final verification to be sure...

                          Opening the case back, he finds a beautifully finish genuine Rolex movement inside. He smiles, satisfied, and tells the custom, "Yes, it's real." . All done and dusted until a year later, the watch is taken to an RSC, and the customer is informed that he has an authentic Rolex movement inside a replica case, dial, bracelet, the lot... A watch like this is not unusual in the replica community, and is considered a common way to mod Rolex copies.

                          As for Harlan, I don’t count him in the group that I refer to. He is not your common Rolex buyer/seller, but has experience—I’d place him in NZ’s Top 3, if not NZ’s Top, among non-Rolex AD, non-high-end jewelers, and non-watchmakers. Also, if Harlan gets into difficulty, he has resources to go to for Rolex-specific expertise. The rest of us, myself included, are not like him, and I’d argue, could never be like him.

                          Unless one makes a hobby out of spotting fakes, most who rely on articles and YouTube uploads on Real-vs-Fake are not looking to spot a fake watch. Rather, they are looking to identify a real Rolex. And that, is where the danger lies. Real-vs-Fake may still be useful for finding most Fakes, yes. But IMO, they are useless at verifying “Real”.

                          The most one could hope to separate is the mediocre copies from the rest, which would remain inconclusive and unverifiable. That is what few watch enthusiasts realize... Times have changed. If someone can authenticate a Rolex, good for them. Because I can’t.





                          On the instruments we entrust to pace our lives, to bear witness to our days, and to be the keepers of the most precious thing we have... time.

                          Comment


                          • harlansmart
                            harlansmart commented
                            Editing a comment
                            Good points, it's become increasingly difficult to pick a super-clone, you really need the item 'in and' or photographed extremely well.

                            Wonder if many of the 'potential buyers/victims' stop to read any of this stuff, or even think about it, based on what we see on a local site, probably not.

                        • #15
                          Originally posted by harlansmart View Post
                          Nuts, lol, as I scrolled down I recall glancing for a moment at the watch you'd used, and thinking 'shitty looking pix to use as an example' there Don!...
                          ...

                          Q: Are you yourself able to tell which of these two movements is the genuine Rolex?

                          A: Think so, the top one is missing a few components, will stick an X through it lol...

                          Haha ...Seriously not intended for you as the target audience, Harlan ...and no tests there, I assure you.






                          Can also assure you that the owner of the "group of four" would not have any gain from deceptively sneaking in another watch ...Does show the impact of shooting from different angles, doesn't it. Also try to imagine that, in eBay or TradeMe listing photos, it would be rare to find such macro of the movement as I have posted in Post #6.
                          On the instruments we entrust to pace our lives, to bear witness to our days, and to be the keepers of the most precious thing we have... time.

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