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  • Trademe listing authenticity-Omega Speedmaster Pro

    Hi Everyone,

    I came across an Omega Speedmaster Pro Moonwatch on Trademe (https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/marketpl...6?bof=QXjVYq0D). I am sceptical regarding the seller's claims for the following reasons.

    1. The seller lists it as ref 3570.50. However, the warranty card does not. In the warranty card, it says Ref 345.0022, and also 3570.50 Tritium. The 3570 looks like a later addition.
    2. In the warranty card it says calibre 861, which is for the ref 345.0022, and a predecessor to the 3570.50. I believe 3570.50 has cal 1861?
    3. The serial no of 48346181 corresponds to a 1985 model, whereas the bracelet is for a newer model (3570.50).

    Did I get the facts wrong?

    Also, please see the attached image for the serial number. Does it look alright?
    Attached Files

  • #2
    Kronos, you are getting very good at this used watch detective thing ...I feel you are developing a sense of what does or does not feel right. It is a good starting point.


    Originally posted by Kronos View Post
    ...
    1. The seller lists it as ref 3570.50. However, the warranty card does not. In the warranty card, it says Ref 345.0022, and also 3570.50 Tritium. The 3570 looks like a later addition.
    2. In the warranty card it says calibre 861, which is for the ref 345.0022, and a predecessor to the 3570.50. I believe 3570.50 has cal 1861?
    3. The serial no of 48346181 corresponds to a 1985 model, whereas the bracelet is for a newer model (3570.50).

    Did I get the facts wrong?...
    First thing that I would advise here is to 1) know the watch and, 2) know the authentication issues relating to the watch. The first means that we can't authenticate a watch unless we know what model, Reference, approximate production year, and the basic original specifications. This identification is the base line, and until a specimen can be identified, one cannot confidently authenticate it. The second implies that different watches--in particular, different vintages--have different ways of becoming inauthentic, and even different models within the same brand. For instance, vintage Omega Constellations have a different way of being non-genuine than, say, Omega Seamaster "Bond".

    What the papers say can serve as a starting point, but only as a starting point. Ultimately, one is buying the watch, not the box and papers ...Most Omega watches sold on the market today with box set didn't originally come with those box sets. Box sets for Omega, like those of Rolex, are a big business on eBay and other platforms, with a mix of both genuine original box sets and replica ones. Compared to watches, box sets are easy to copy due to their relatively low manufacturing cost, and buyer's expectation of paying high prices make them a lucrative business.

    So, the first order of business here is to know what model, Reference, approximate year, and basic specs are. You've already made headway with this, great! However, if you were to ask this question on the Omega Forum, members there will tell you to get photos of the movement and inside of the case back. Without those, the example cannot be truly authenticated. Keeping this in mind, let's see what we have...
    1. You've already checked that the Serial No. 48346181 corresponds to 1985. However, from what I know of these Speedmaster Pro, it is also possible to be up to 1988, so let's say 1987 +/-. For 1987 Speedmaster Moon Watch of this dial format, only the Cal. 861 is possible, as the Cal. 1861 was not introduced until 1996. (see captainscarlet1's Post#3 below for correction)
    2. A 1987 Moon Watch could be either a Ref. 145.0022 or a Ref. 345.0022. They are essentially the same watch, with the latter just being a revised Reference. The Omega database states that the 345.0022 was released internationally in 1989, but according to Chuck Maddox, it debut in 1987, so IMO, could be either. It could NOT be a 3570.50, because although this is also the same watch, this PIC was not released until 1996 (see captainscarlet1's Post#3 below, though at this point, the seller has disclosed that the warranty card has been filled in by an unauthorized party).... Ref. 3570.50 was a transition point from Cal. 861 to 1861, so both movements can be correct. Most Ref. 3570.50 that I've seen on the market have Serials into the 7xxxxxx.
    3. I agree with what you assessed of the bracelet. The set fitted looks like it's from the late-1990s. On this matter, it is not uncommon for earlier 145.0022 to be found with bracelet from later models. This is because they were factory-fitted with leather straps, but acquired the bracelet at a later stage... However, leather straps models would not have warranty cards stamped 345.0022, all of which came on bracelet. The first "3" means gent's bracelet watch.
    Applying Occam's razor, it looks likely to me that someone had obtained a box set with a blank warranty card, then proceeded to fill it in with whatever they think should appear. I don't think any Omega AD, even on a Friday afternoon , would write in the Date field "96-97" the same way we don't write "21-22" when we fill in forms today. So, whether this someone is the seller listing this item, or giving the seller the benefit of the doubt (excellent feedback, etc.) someone else whom he bought the watch from is inconsequential. The fact of the matter is the box set and card are unlikely to belong to the piece, and therefore, rubbish.

    The second aspect that I mentioned above--know the authentication issues relating to the watch--is that nearly half of vintage Speedmaster Moon Watch that I've seen on the market today are inauthentic in some ways. The reasons come from 1) these watches have enjoyed a continuous popularity since the 90s, and in the popularity stake, only second to the Rolex Submariner, so always a steady high demand for them, and 2) Ref. 145.0022 and its subsequent variants had a very long production span, staying relatively the same (same enough to interchange parts) yet having enough variation so as to be confusing to non-collectors. There is also big business in the sale of genuine Omega service parts, i.e. spare parts that are intended to keep a watch operational, but not intended to keep a watch original.

    The risk that is involved is not about getting a fake watch--receiving a Chinese-made rep is easy to rectify and there is clear legal recourse to take. The risk is in getting a watch that does consist of genuine parts, but those parts were not from the same watch, i.e. a Franken-Omega, or one primarily made of Omega service parts. If I were serious in considering this watch on TradeMe, I would ask to see photos of the movement and the inside of the case back. This, for me, needs to be done BEFORE committing, because the authenticity that you and other serious collectors are seeking is not the kind that you can go to the police about.

    Once you buy it, that's it, and it becomes your problem to deal with, so do tread carefully.
    Last edited by Don; 09-02-21, 16:55.
    On the instruments we entrust to pace our lives, to bear witness to our days, and to be the keepers of the most precious thing we have... time.

    Comment


    • chua
      chua commented
      Editing a comment
      An excellent post Don!
      Kronos - if you do get a photo of the movement, with the case number that you have and the movement serial number, for a fee you can get order an Extract from the Archives from Omega https://www.omegawatches.com/custome...f-the-archives which could be useful for resale(?)

    • Kronos
      Kronos commented
      Editing a comment
      Thanks, chua. I will ask the seller for an image of the movement and the caseback. However, I don't think I would consider this anymore. The price has been jacked up to $7750 from the original $6500.

  • #3
    Some very sage advice there Don. One thing to note is that I believe speedy pro watches have a seperate serial number chart so it is important to make sure you’re looking at the right one.
    http://www.chronomaddox.com/romans.html
    Preparation and planning prevent piss poor performance

    Comment


    • Don
      Don commented
      Editing a comment
      Thank you, captain'. I did forget and overlooked that. My post above has been amended to reference yours. Also, as the seller has now disclosed that the warranty card was initially blank and not completed by the Omega AD, I guess all the info it contains should be disregarded. We just have to go on the watch alone.

  • #4
    Originally posted by Don View Post
    ....
    Thanks very much, Don. This is exactly what I wanted to know. I will ask the seller for the pictures of the movement and case back. The initial price tag of $6500 was reasonable, which the seller has justified with box and papers. I would still have thought about it considering the duty hassles associated with getting one from abroad. Now I see that the seller has further increased the price to $7750, which in my opinion is a bit on the higher side. I don't think I would be considering this one. Will wait
    Last edited by Kronos; 09-02-21, 13:40.

    Comment


    • #5
      Originally posted by captainscarlet1 View Post
      Some very sage advice there Don. One thing to note is that I believe speedy pro watches have a seperate serial number chart so it is important to make sure you’re looking at the right one.
      http://www.chronomaddox.com/romans.html
      Thanks very much, captainscarlet1. The link is very helpful!

      Comment


      • #6
        Comment from the seller "Having done further research, price has gone up slightly. Sorry. Its an awesome watch, in beautiful condition, with the nicest modern speedmaster bracelet you can get. The warranty card appears to have been left blank when sold originally, then filled in by an owner. Price would be the same with or without box and cards etc, so up to you if that's an issue or not."

        Comment


        • #7
          Reply from the seller on my request asking for pictures of the movement and case back: "Hi. I’m happy to make this possible so long as you’re genuinely interested in the watch. If you’re just inquisitive, it looks much like every other 861!"

          Comment


          • #8
            The price jump is substantial .. I wouldn't call that " went up slightly..."

            Comment


            • Kronos
              Kronos commented
              Editing a comment
              Oh yes, its a substantial change! :-)

          • #9
            Got the movement pics

            Comment


            • #10
              Definition of Occam's razor (from the internet)

              a scientific and philosophical rule that entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily”

              A tad ironic after all that conjecture! It’s my listing. The watch is as described. You can email Omega via omegawatches.com with the serial number and they will confirm the model and movement, for free.
              It sure beats getting the opinion of an ‘expert’ on your local forum.

              People forget that the person selling a watch, was once the person buying that same watch. So the seller might well already have the answers to any questions that are likely to pop up. Why not ask them? Most watch enthusiasts are nice people!

              If anyone wants that watch, or any of my other listings, minus the tm sellers fee. Please feel free to pm me

              All the best and happy hunting.

              Ted.

              Comment


              • #11
                Hi Ted,

                Welcome to the forum. You misunderstand the objective of the original post. It's nothing personal. The post is merely to discuss the authenticity of the watch. The post was started before you added further info about the papers. And regarding the opinion of the "experts" on this forum, I trust their opinion and judgement more than a salesperson at an authorised dealer. Most members here are not just watch enthusiasts, but also take time and effort to learn more. As you said, one can email Omega with the serial number to get a confirmation of the movement. However, as Don mentioned in his post, the issue is not whether or not the watch is a counterfeit, instead, getting a watch with genuine Omega parts, but not of the same watch.

                One of the members in the forum vouch for you, and so as a prospective buyer, I am not too worried about the genuineness of you as a seller. I didn't want to pose these questions in the Trademe questions, lest it deters other prospective buyers.

                Thank you for taking the time to contribute to this post.

                Comment


                • Don
                  Don commented
                  Editing a comment
                  You are doing everything right on this post, Kronos, and I support your stance. Your courteous conduct is unlike this individual who joins an online community, don't bother to read the rules (https://www.timekeeper.co.nz/forum/a...ated-july-2013 ), and within his first post, proceed to breach a rule with "If anyone wants that watch, or any of my other listings, minus the tm sellers fee. Please feel free to pm me..." ...Instead of humiliating himself in public, this person should actually be THANKING you for getting him to put up photos of the watch open, on TM, making it more attractive to potential buyers out there.

                  There are people selling watches who can't differentiate constructive criticism about a watch they own and their action from personal attacks on them as a person. These types are small, and often equate watches that they own/sell with their fragile ego. I'm not saying that "Ted" is such a person, because I can't possibly know him--I'm just saying there are such people. I won't respond to this member as he is not worth my time.

              • #12
                You started with "I'm skeptical regards the sellers claims.." that is actually personal.

                There is so much nonsense in Don's post! Conjecture, presumption, assumption. Captainscarlet1 and Lepo76
                hats off to you guys, some provision of fact in this thread

                Comment


                • #13
                  “.Instead of humiliating himself in public”

                  um I’m not the one who can’t look up a serial number Don. And I’m not the one suggesting that someone has to be authorized to write on a piece of plastic that they own!
                  Last edited by Delilah; 12-02-21, 15:54.

                  Comment


                  • #14
                    Originally posted by Kronos View Post
                    Hi Everyone,

                    I came across an Omega Speedmaster Pro Moonwatch on Trademe (https://www.trademe.co.nz/a/marketpl...6?bof=QXjVYq0D). I am sceptical regarding the seller's claims for the following reasons.

                    1. The seller lists it as ref 3570.50. However, the warranty card does not. In the warranty card, it says Ref 345.0022, and also 3570.50 Tritium. The 3570 looks like a later addition.
                    2. In the warranty card it says calibre 861, which is for the ref 345.0022, and a predecessor to the 3570.50. I believe 3570.50 has cal 1861?
                    3. The serial no of 48346181 corresponds to a 1985 model, whereas the bracelet is for a newer model (3570.50).

                    Did I get the facts wrong?

                    Also, please see the attached image for the serial number. Does it look alright?
                    For the benefit of some of our new members,
                    Never be afraid to ask the hard questions here,
                    You have to remember why the Watch Out sub forum thread is here.

                    Its to offer potential buyers advice and facts on watches that are being offered for sale.

                    It is to give them enough facts and data so they can research the watch and decide if the watch is genuine in all aspects or if it has issues .
                    ie. papers serials, franken etc
                    If the buyer still has any issues he can then approach the owner and resolve them or walk away till another day
                    The purpose is to scrutinize the watch not the owner.
                    If the watch is proven to be totally authentic then nothing is lost and the buyer is happy with a potential purchase
                    ​​​​​​​



                    Kronos asked the questions, which he is entitled to and even went as far to say he may have gotten it wrong,
                    And I'm glad he did as
                    these were concerns any serious buyer would be looking at before dropping $7k

                    Advice and data was given
                    Don offered some very good and impersonal factual advice to Kronos
                    giving him a base on which to research further

                    And advised him of the risks when dealing with second hand Omegas in general
                    Then he recommended that a picture be obtained to determined the watch was what was been described

                    The Capt also added a reference link on omega serials which Don acknowledged he had overlooked and amended his previous post,

                    I don't see anything personal in any of the above posts,
                    I see data and references and warnings on the risks associated with 2nd hand omegas.
                    Any buyer would be skeptical if the numbers don't match up and would seek further advice from those with more knowledge


                    To the seller, Delilah/Ted
                    would it not have been simpler to answer Kronos concerns here, rather then get all heated under the collar.
                    I know if it was my watch been authenticated, I may be annoyed but I would be upfront and state my case answering questions and concerns,
                    If you had you may still have had a potential buyer until you bumped the price.
                    A watch is only worth what the market is prepared to pay, If you get your asking price then well done and more power to you


                    If any buyer asks here for advice , we will freely give it.
                    The main purpose of this thread is to help the buyer make an informed decision.
                    I hope that never changes.
                    Rest easy Matty , My best Mate and Son

                    Comment


                    • Artemis12
                      Artemis12 commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Nicely put Pedro44

                    • Don
                      Don commented
                      Editing a comment
                      Thank you, pedro44. You've been a valued member here from very early on in Timekeeper's history. The measured thoughtful reply to the OP may well reflect how, not only many of our members, but any reasonable person would feel. Authentication of watches being sold on public auction sites by watch forums is nothing new--we didn't invent the practice.

                      One only needed to look at the world's leading watch forums, every one of which has such an activity. Those forums see it as a legitimate process to educate and protect their members, as well as a check&balance on watch collectors as a whole. In fact, at the same time that Kronos started this topic, Watchuseek was running this authentication thread... https://www.watchuseek.com/threads/r...#post-52997180 ...Omega Forum also ran this thread at the same time as ours... https://omegaforums.net/threads/spee...n-ebay.126715/ ...and a week before ours, The Watch Site was also running this authentication thread... https://www.thewatchsite.com/threads.../#post-2883731

                      At no point during those discussions did any triggered seller storm in to disparage participating members. Such would surely not be allowed.
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